Afghanistan

[Dill]

(08-26-2021, 12:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I most certainly can, just as I mention the excesses of Christianity during the slave trade and how it couldn't have existed if more Christians acted, well, like Christians, and demanded it stop.  When your religion is being used to justify horrific acts then it is the responsibility of the adherents of that religion to stand up and say, no!  There are certainly Muslims that do this, but clearly in nothing close to the numbers needed to effect actual change.  Or, you know, things would actually change.

I would think that's rather self evident.  You take issue with my criticism of Islam and claim I am incorrect in my characterizations of how the religion is currently used, en masse, to denigrate and oppress women and homosexuals, to name only two categories.  I then asked you to prove me wrong by listing the majority Muslim countries in which that is not the case.  You provided two examples, both in Europe.  I then asked you to provide a list of Muslim majority countries in which women and homosexuals are oppressed and denigrated as a matter of routine.  You balked at this, and we all know why.  It's this type of intellectual cowardice that makes all your refutations on this subject patently absurd and imminently laughable.  You know you've been painted into a corner, hence your desperate attempts to consistently mischaracterize my position as bigoted towards all Muslims.  It's not working, it's not going to work, and your flailing attempts to deny it have passed the point of embarrassing.  

Perhaps better to say, "if early modern Christians acted more like liberals, honoring the newly developing liberal ethics premised on universal human rights."

Their Bible offered all the support the slavers needed for their practice. Still does, and yet most Christians are against the practice--as are most Muslims.

You are tying both Christianity and Islam to texts whose "eternal meanings" change with material, economic, and social developments. 

And that is why I have not been disputing, let alone "refuting," claims that oppression occurs in Muslim countries; I just question the degree to which Islam can be assigned primary responsibility for this. 

I still do take issue with your continued explanation of "oppression" in terms of religion and personal moral defects, rather than other material and social determinants which appear to count more. 

So no, I have never disputed (or attempted to refute) claims that women and "homosexuals" are not treated liberally in non-liberal countries, not just "Muslim-majority."  Still, you keep claiming to have demonstrated I am "wrong" about what I have not disputed, a statement you cannot seem to cite, but something you could disprove with a list of Muslim-majority countries longer than two. Mentions of Albania and Bosnia were not attempts to prove that women etc. were not oppressed in other places. Though note--both countries are in a liberalized Europe. Perhaps there is more to this "oppression" issue than religion? 

And yes, I fault your impressions of Islam, and of Muslim-majority nations. You speak of them as if "oppression" were some kind of constant, distributed invariably, unrelated to material/social factors, and the "fault" of those who stand by and allow the bad oppressors to do their thing. 

You've mellowed somewhat from your post #179 on the "Merkels foes in disarray" thread, where you said: "As islam has quite adequately demonstrated that they are an ideology whose teaching should quite logically be feared by anyone who cherishes Western democratic and secular values then such fear cannot be considered unreasonable."

That wasn't solely addressed to "radical Islam." And now you grant that some Muslims may fight "oppression." Perhaps I have contributed to your growth.  

The personal attacks remain, though; not the best way to work off anxiety back then, nor now.