07-11-2022, 01:10 AM
(07-10-2022, 11:12 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Thank you for the honest and thoughtful response. I would like to ask a couple questions if you don't mind.
First; Do you believe in God for reasons that you think are verifiable in the natural world?
Second; If God could be proven to exist, how would we know with certainty what he thinks about anything?
Good questions.
So, this might be a bit of a long winded answer, but bare with me. I apologize if it seems like I'm lecturing, but I like to discuss in a sort of frame work answer, and I'm not necessarily speaking to you as if you don't already know these things. With that said....
First off, there needs to be a distinction made regarding "proof". There are two ways human beings use the concept of "proof".
1. Undeniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as truth because it cannot be questioned or an alternative answer cannot be provided.
2. Deniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as proof but is questionable or an alternative answer can be provided.
When someone asks me to prove God to them, I have to ask, well what do you mean?
Are you asking if I can provide undeniable proof? Or are you asking me to provide deniable proof?
In the instance of providing deniable proof, I suppose one could "prove" God's existence, but that all depends on what it is you're asking as evidence for proof. For example, asking someone to show that they can walk on water as proof for God's existence, If someone actually did this, some people might actually be moved to believe God exists because they value walking on water as proof for God's existence. Others however, who don't value that as evidence would simply either explain it away or say it amounts to nothing more than a cool party trick.
In the case of providing undeniable proof, I personally don't believe anyone can do this.
I believe that God is all powerful, so the idea that I could somehow prove God's existence is actually contradictory to that. if I could prove God exists, then that would mean I have some sort of control over God, which I don't believe anyone does. In my opinion, the only undeniable proof for God's existence is for God to actually reveal himself.
That's it.
There's nothing any human being can say or do to provide undeniable proof of God's existence. We can try to provide evidence for his existence, but this is problematic because again, any evidence that can be provided would fall into the realm of deniable proof, and thus, whether the evidence provided is considered "proof" or not is completely up to the individual looking for proof and how they personally value the evidence provided.
So, to answer your two questions, I believe only God can truly prove his own existence, and any thoughts he has can only truly be revealed on his own accord. Anything beyond that is left to faith and assumption. I personally believe in God for reasons I don't believe can be verified because again, I don't believe any human being can actually prove God's existence in a way that is undeniable.
So that probably leads to the question, why believe in God then?
Because I believe I have deniable proof for his existence and I value the evidence. It's a personal anecdote.
When I was in highschool I stayed in a hotel for a sports event that I qualified for and decided to go to the pool that was there (in the hotel). No one else was in the pool area with me and I thought it would be a great idea to go to the deep end by myself even though I didn't know how to swim. I was holding on to the side of the pool and thought to myself "Hey, I'll try to teach myself to swim". So, I kept letting go of the side of the pool and would flail my legs, and once I felt myself sinking I would quickly grab on to the side of the pool again to catch myself. I did this multiple times over and over again and successfully caught myself each time I felt my body sinking,
Well..... one time I wasn't so lucky and I felt myself sinking and went to grab the side of the pool and my hand was too slippery and it slipped right off. I fell all the way to the bottom of the pool.
Man.... even typing this right now I remember how scared I was.
Anyway, my feet touched the bottom and I screamed like an idiot, thinking someone would actually hear me. I quickly realized my situation and got a grip of myself and pushed off the floor of the pool with my feet and started to float back up, but I didn't breach the top of the water and I started sinking again and that's when I completely panicked and screamed again, but this time I remember screaming "God help me". Probably sounds really cheesy, but honestly I don't care. After I yelled that, I'll never forget it. I felt two hands come up under my arms and lift me up to the top of the water and I felt my head come up out of the water and I just reached out and grabbed the side of the pool.
I pulled myself out of the water and laid by the side of the pool. I remember how shocked I was thinking "What just happened?". Oddly enough I ended up going back to the pool that day with some of my teammates (they all knew how to swim) and I tried to recreate what happened, because honestly, I don't think I believed it at first. I couldn't recreate what happened and to this day I wholeheartedly believe God saved me from drowning that day.
So yeah, that's my story. It's not something I'd call undeniable proof, but it's a deniable proof for me.
