07-12-2022, 05:49 PM
(07-11-2022, 01:10 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Good questions.
So, this might be a bit of a long winded answer, but bare with me. I apologize if it seems like I'm lecturing, but I like to discuss in a sort of frame work answer, and I'm not necessarily speaking to you as if you don't already know these things. With that said....
I greatly appreciate responses that are informative, nuanced and well-stated. It make these types of discussion much easier to have and maintain, in my opinion.
Quote:First off, there needs to be a distinction made regarding "proof". There are two ways human beings use the concept of "proof".
1. Undeniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as truth because it cannot be questioned or an alternative answer cannot be provided.
2. Deniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as proof but is questionable or an alternative answer can be provided.
First off, there needs to be a distinction made regarding "proof". There are two ways human beings use the concept of "proof".
1. Undeniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as truth because it cannot be questioned or an alternative answer cannot be provided.
2. Deniable proofs, that is evidence that is accepted as proof but is questionable or an alternative answer can be provided.
When someone asks me to prove God to them, I have to ask, well what do you mean?
Are you asking if I can provide undeniable proof? Or are you asking me to provide deniable proof?
In the instance of providing deniable proof, I suppose one could "prove" God's existence, but that all depends on what it is you're asking as evidence for proof. For example, asking someone to show that they can walk on water as proof for God's existence, If someone actually did this, some people might actually be moved to believe God exists because they value walking on water as proof for God's existence. Others however, who don't value that as evidence would simply either explain it away or say it amounts to nothing more than a cool party trick.
In the case of providing undeniable proof, I personally don't believe anyone can do this.
I believe that God is all powerful, so the idea that I could somehow prove God's existence is actually contradictory to that. if I could prove God exists, then that would mean I have some sort of control over God, which I don't believe anyone does. In my opinion, the only undeniable proof for God's existence is for God to actually reveal himself.
That's it.
I've never found these definitions to be particularly useful, as I believe there is only one undeniable proof. Therefore, all other proofs would necessarily fall into the deniable category.
Instead, when I speak of proof, what I'm referring to is that which is available to, and able to withstand scientific rigor; be identified, observed, investigated, analyzed, evaluated, tested and concluded to be the best and most accurate explanation.
When I ask someone for proof that God is real, I'm asking for evidence that could meet that criteria -- meaning that in necessarily manifest in the natural world and is subject to natural methodologies. If the evidence falls outside that scope, I'm not sure what it even means to call it evidence, as it's simply conjecture based on that which can't be currently accessed or investigated; of no use in terms of real-world utility.
Quote:There's nothing any human being can say or do to provide undeniable proof of God's existence. We can try to provide evidence for his existence, but this is problematic because again, any evidence that can be provided would fall into the realm of deniable proof, and thus, whether the evidence provided is considered "proof" or not is completely up to the individual looking for proof and how they personally value the evidence provided.
Falling into the category of deniable proof isn't the problem. The problem is the level of the claim itself; an all-powerful entity that created everything and has the power to affect our existence for eternity, and who can occupy a realm outside of know space and time.
It seems to me that proving that claim would first require that we prove the supernatural exists, and that we have a meaningful way to access and investigate it. Until that becomes possible, proving God is impossible, in my opinion.
Quote:So, to answer your two questions, I believe only God can truly prove his own existence, and any thoughts he has can only truly be revealed on his own accord. Anything beyond that is left to faith and assumption. I personally believe in God for reasons I don't believe can be verified because again, I don't believe any human being can actually prove God's existence in a way that is undeniable.
I find it a little too curious that a God that's capable of revealing himself to everyone chooses not to. It seems he would know what would be 100% effective on each individual; as to leave no doubt of his existence. Yet, he decides for other methods that seem all too human in terms of nature. I find the issue of divine hiddenness is a huge problem for a God that wants everyone to know and believe in him.
Two common objections are that if God revealed himself in a way that would convince everyone of his existence, it would prevent us to seeking him out as a desire for the relationship, or that very act would violate our free will. However, I find these objections to be inadequate for a couple of reasons:
First; if God is omniscient, then he already knew every instance of belief, nonbelief, the reasons why and what would constitute evidence for every individual. The fact that he created every person knowing what evidence would convince them and chose not to grant them said evidence, would seem to suggest he doesn't actually care about it to the degree the Biblical authors claimed on his behalf.
Second; everyone knowing for a fact that God exists doesn't mean that everyone would choose to follow him, worship him or desire a relationship with him. In the Biblical accounts, Lucifer knew God existed, and still chose to reject him. Lucifer's free will was not violated by the knowledge of God's existence.
Quote:So that probably leads to the question, why believe in God then?
Because I believe I have deniable proof for his existence and I value the evidence. It's a personal anecdote.
When I was in highschool I stayed in a hotel for a sports event that I qualified for and decided to go to the pool that was there (in the hotel). No one else was in the pool area with me and I thought it would be a great idea to go to the deep end by myself even though I didn't know how to swim. I was holding on to the side of the pool and thought to myself "Hey, I'll try to teach myself to swim". So, I kept letting go of the side of the pool and would flail my legs, and once I felt myself sinking I would quickly grab on to the side of the pool again to catch myself. I did this multiple times over and over again and successfully caught myself each time I felt my body sinking,
Well..... one time I wasn't so lucky and I felt myself sinking and went to grab the side of the pool and my hand was too slippery and it slipped right off. I fell all the way to the bottom of the pool.
Man.... even typing this right now I remember how scared I was.
Anyway, my feet touched the bottom and I screamed like an idiot, thinking someone would actually hear me. I quickly realized my situation and got a grip of myself and pushed off the floor of the pool with my feet and started to float back up, but I didn't breach the top of the water and I started sinking again and that's when I completely panicked and screamed again, but this time I remember screaming "God help me". Probably sounds really cheesy, but honestly I don't care. After I yelled that, I'll never forget it. I felt two hands come up under my arms and lift me up to the top of the water and I felt my head come up out of the water and I just reached out and grabbed the side of the pool.
I pulled myself out of the water and laid by the side of the pool. I remember how shocked I was thinking "What just happened?". Oddly enough I ended up going back to the pool that day with some of my teammates (they all knew how to swim) and I tried to recreate what happened, because honestly, I don't think I believed it at first. I couldn't recreate what happened and to this day I wholeheartedly believe God saved me from drowning that day.
Quote:So yeah, that's my story. It's not something I'd call undeniable proof, but it's a deniable proof for me.
Thanks for sharing your experience, but as I'm sure you anticipated, I have questions.
Did you give equally serious consideration to the alternative that what you felt was simply your brain's interpretation of fear, stress and adrenaline you were experiencing?
Had you had gotten out absent the feeling of being lifted, after calling upon God for assistance, would you still have given God credit?
If someone else calls out to God while drowning and no help comes, what would you conclude about God?
I realize your account is purely anecdotal, but I still think these are important questions whenever I'm presented with such accounts. These questions aren't meant in any to discount what you experienced, as it's very significant to you. However, I always find it interesting in such instances how or why other reasonable explanations aren't given the same consideration?
