Christian Nationalism; The Right-wing Addiction

[*michaelsean*]

(07-12-2022, 05:49 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I greatly appreciate responses that are informative, nuanced and well-stated. It make these types of discussion much easier to have and maintain, in my opinion. 


I've never found these definitions to be particularly useful, as I believe there is only one undeniable proof. Therefore, all other proofs would necessarily fall into the deniable category. 

Instead, when I speak of proof, what I'm referring to is that which can is available to, and able to withstand scientific rigor; be identified, observed, investigated, analyzed, evaluated, tested and concluded to be the best and most accurate explanation.

When I ask someone for proof that God is real, I'm asking for evidence that could meet that criteria -- meaning that in necessarily manifest in the natural world and is subject to natural methodologies. If the evidence falls outside that scope, I'm not sure what it even means to call it evidence, as it's simply conjecture based on that which can't be currently accessed or investigated; of no use in terms of real-world utility.


Falling into the category of deniable proof isn't the problem. The problem is the level of the claim itself; an all-powerful entity that created everything and has the power to affect our existence for eternity, and who can occupy a realm outside of know space and time. 

It seems to me that proving that claim would first require that we prove the supernatural exists, and the we have a meaningful way to access and investigate it. Until that becomes possible, proving God is impossible, in my opinion. 


I find it a little too curious that a God that's capable of revealing himself to everyone chooses not to. It seems he would know what would be 100% effective on each individual; as to leave no doubt of his existence. Yet, he decides for other methods that seem all too human in terms of nature. I find the issue of divine hiddenness is a huge problem for a God that wants everyone to know and believe in him.

Two common objections are that if God revealed himself in a way that would convince everyone of his existence, it would prevent us to seeking him out as a desire for the relationship, or that very act would violate our free will. However, I find this objection to be inadequate for a couple of reasons:

First; if God is omniscient, then he already knew every instance of belief, nonbelief, the reasons why and what would constitute evidence for every individual. The fact that he created every person knowing what evidence would convince them and chose not to grant them said evidence, would seem to suggest he doesn't actually care about it to the degree the Biblical authors claimed on his behalf. 

Second; everyone knowing for a fact that God exists doesn't mean that everyone would choose to follow him, worship him or desire a relationship with him. In the Biblical accounts, Lucifer knew God existed, and still chose to reject him. Lucifer's free will was not violated by the knowledge of God's existence. 


Thanks for sharing your experience, but as I'm sure you anticipated, I have questions.

Did you give equally serious consideration to the alternative that what you felt was simply your brain's interpretation of fear, stress and adrenaline you were experiencing?

Had you had gotten out absent the feeling of being lifted, after calling upon God for assistance, would you still have given God credit?

If someone else calls out to God while drowning and no help comes, what would you conclude about God?

I realize your account is purely anecdotal, but I still think these are important questions whenever I'm presented with such accounts. There questions are meant in any to discount what you experienced, as it's very significant to you. However, I always find it interesting in such instances how or why other reasonable explanations aren't given the same consideration?

Just to address this part. That’s an assumption that our purpose here is to believe in God. That would be an odd purpose. If, as an exercise, you assume the existence of God then think of why we would be here. I think the major religions have confused it all for their own gain.