07-09-2023, 08:23 PM
(07-09-2023, 06:29 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I know we were having a debate about this some time ago and it was a good dicussion but I think I just lost time in getting back to what we were talking about, but I'd like to jump back in on this.
I think the problem with the framework you've created here is in the bold.
Notice you said "They did what they were created to do". It sounds like you're saying we were created to sin, which I disagree with. We were created to choose. Our choices are between God and sin. I don't find that to be evil when we have been offered an everlasting alternative to suffering. Had God not given us an alternative then I'd be honest in saying that would be really concerning to me.
Yes, that was a very good discussion indeed.
You stated that God created us to choose God or sin. If you believe God is completely omniscient, then this position suffers logical shortcomings.
If God knew all sins that would ever be committed if he created this particular version of us, and still purposely chose to create this version instead of another, then by default, we have no choice in whether we sin or not. It's already been determined by God's choice to create us. Can we choose to do differently that which God already knows we will do?
The everlasting alternative -- under the omniscient view -- seems nonsensical, as he already knows all outcomes; given that he created the world in which those outcomes would necessarily be the case.
Now, if one were to argue from a position where God is not omniscient, there are different conversations to be had.
Quote:I believe God is responsible for giving us the ability to choose. However, I don't believe he is responsible for the choices that we make. To me, that is the difference. If you had the foreknowledge that someone was going to use a gun to commmit a mass shooting, and you put that gun near the shooter, I wouldn't say you were responsible for the shooting. However, I would say you were responsible for the gun being there for that person to use, but that doesn't make you responsible for the shooting actually happening because the shooting doesn't happen until the perpatrator makes the individualistic choice to use the gun.
Let's place your analogy in the context of being omniscient:
I know in advance that a mass shooting will happen if I create a specific scenario.
I create the very scenario I already know will result in a mass shooting.
I created the mass shooting by already knowing the shooters choice and creating the scenario anyway.
Quote:Again, there's a problem with the framework here.
I wouldn't say God "created" sin, but rather sin is the by proiduct of God's law. In the same way in which human beings don't "create" crime, but rather it's the laws we put in place that "create" crime. Without human laws there is no such thing as crime, just as without God's law there would be no such thing as sin. It's kind of like how shadows aren't really "created". They are simply the by product of light acting on a physical object {like God 's laws or human laws}. You take away the light and suddenly shadows no longer "exist".
Notice you said God offers salvation to "the crimes he created them to commit". Well, that's not a true statement. God did not create us to commt crimes. He created us with the intention that we won't act in sinful ways, but we then choose to be sinful or "commit crimes."
Again, this seems rather contradictory on the omniscient version of God.
God created us with complete foreknowledge of all our sins; but also desired we not commit the sins he already knows about?
