10-06-2023, 01:45 PM
(10-05-2023, 09:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: It was a widely overused accusation. But that weird people use it to bully cops etc. does not mean that the accusation now lost all its meaning in any case. There are still cases of actual Nazi language around, after all.
First, I wish it was just "weird" people who casually hurl these accusations. They occur far too often to only be the purview of the "weird". Yes, there are times in which a person can echo sentiments from national socialism or Stalinist communism. But echoing of certain sentiments is not, IMO, sufficient cause to attempt to equate them with either ideology as a whole. As I stated before, both regimes committed unspeakable atrocities, thus any comparison to them is also a comparison to those atrocities. That being the case, unless you are echoing the very worst aspects of these ideologies; e.g. "X" race is evil and needs to be exterminated, or the "ruling class" is evil and needs to be exterminated, such a comparison is unfair due to the extreme baggage that so obviously accompanies it.
Quote:Probably not. But that also has little to do with the case at hand.
Oh, I completely disagree. If you're going to traffic in these types of comparisons then who you target and why becomes very important. Why, because it determines your intent. If you apply these labels to one person, or group, but not to another, especially one that the comparisons is more apt, then one is left to ask why in one case and not the other? In this case the answer is clear, because doing it against Trump attacks people you disagree with and doing it in the other alienates people who are on your side. So, if we're discussing why these comparisons are made, and if they should be made at all, this comparison is absolutely germane to the subject at hand.
Quote:Yes, but this is not about Trump or anyone being opposed to immigration. It's about him using Nazi phrases while doing so. Quite literal Nazi phrases. Btw. it might be another coincidence (it would still be horrible language, imho), or he gets ideas from the wrong kind of people.
You asked for examples of Dems engaging in this type of behavior. Aside from Hillary giving me an absolute gift in this regard last night (which I addressed in an above post), I'll use Ilhan Omar, who has more than once echoed Nazi propaganda on the subject of Jewish people. In one instance accusing Israel of "hypnotizing" the world, a direct Nazi propaganda concept, and in another equating them to using wealth to bribe others into compliance, yet another antisemitic trope ripped right from the pages of The Daily Stormer. Even so, while I certainly believe that Omar is an antisemite, I would not equate her to the Nazis, despite her apparent comfort in espousing tropes taken directly from their anti-Jewish propaganda. Why, because while I believe her to be bigoted towards Jews I do not think she is a proponent of national socialism. Again, she may echo their sentiments on this topic, but the Nazi comparison is far too loaded and carries far too much weight.
Quote:Sure. A Nazi regime in the strictest sense will never materialize as such again, so every comparison will fail at some point; but certain elements can. Tropes like the language used. Pointing to rhetorical duplicates does not necessarily mean the ones using the Nazi language are themselves to be seen as actual Nazis now. But these tropes can still be seen as typical for rising anti-democratic, populist authoritarian forces, or fascists if you will. Many of whom used and use certain pages from the Nazi playbook, especially language-wise.
Well, if we're using propaganda as a benchmark than North Korea is more Nazi than the Nazis themselves. The point isn't whether someone, or some regime echoes certain aspects of that regime, or Stalinism, it's whether echoing some parts of it justifies equating that person the the ideology as a whole. Because whether you like it or not, when you make the comparison you're doing it completely, in every aspect. Very, very few people are nuanced enough to see such a comparison and think, "well, they certainly did echo Nazi sentiments with that statement, but I will, of course, rationally disconnect that comparison to the worst atrocities of the Nazi regime when I consider this comparison". This simply does not happen. The very reason the comparison is used is to fully equate the person in question to every aspect of that regime. Even if that is not the intent, it is the effect you will achieve.
Quote:I don't know if it makes any sense to make Nazi-China comparisons, that's a completely different culture with a completely different history and I can not quite comment on their rhetoric. But they certainly fall under the authoritarian category and that is debated plenty. Sweet Baerbock called Xi a dictator recently and imho that shoe fits well enough.
The culture is immaterial. Do they mirror the actual actions of the Nazi regime is the question at hand. Do they round up political dissidents and either "reeducate" them or kill them? Yes. Do they actively stifle any dissent, often in brutal ways? Yes. Do they use the citizenry to spy on each other and report "anti-state" behavior to the authorities? Yes. Do they place "undesirable" ethnicities in concentration camps and then exterminate them? Again yes. Do they engage in provocative and aggressive behavior with neighboring states, claiming their territories as their own? Yes.
These are the ways in which a comparison to the Nazis is warranted, by adhering to their worst excesses. Making the comparison for far lesser reasons whilst ignoring a far more apt, and richly deserved, example again just exposes the real reason the comparison is made. To slap a label on those with which you disagree. And in this case the absolute worst label that can be applied.
Quote:I mean, by all means, do it. There's a chance that afterwards I will still not see the left as close to the worst excesses of communism as I see Trump to fascism, but I'm comfortable with any decent counterpoint. If AOC used a common phrase from Stalin, for example, you'd have a splendid comparison.
I did with Omar, and again with Hillary in another post. I could certainly find more examples, but I think this will suffice to move the conversation forward. Looking forward to your reply. No hurry, of course.
