P01135809 Echoes Hitler: Migrants "Poisoning the Blood of Our Country"

[hollodero]

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: First, I wish it was just "weird" people who casually hurl these accusations.  They occur far too often to only be the purview of the "weird".

As I said, it was way overused and there are many strange people around who shout Nazi at everyone who does not align with them, and cops certainly are a particularly common enemy of the ideologically blinded. Sorry for saying "weird", it's just a term, that expresses that while I do not doubt such instances repeat themselves often, it is still not how a common person would act.

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, there are times in which a person can echo sentiments from national socialism or Stalinist communism.  But echoing of certain sentiments is not, IMO, sufficient cause to attempt to equate them with either ideology as a whole.

I don't think anyone here tried to equate Trump with the Nazi ideology as a whole. I for one made quite an effort to make that distinction clear, and I diid not see anyone else claim that Trump is in fact a Nazi.
Which leads me to the main point of the evening, there also are lots of unfair communism or Stalinism or antisemitism accusations around. But that does not mean one can not complain about Omar's language and she has now a free pass. And you do not, you critizise her harshly over it, and I don't quite see the huge qualitative distinction between her case and the Trump case. If you have issues with her using her kind of language, I don't think you can scold folks for doing the same thing when it comes to Trump. You might say Nazi is in a sense even worse or carries even more baggage, and that is true. But what is the alternative when Trump or anyone actually uses Nazi phrases, are folks expected to be silent about it unless it's really while standing under a swastika with a raised arm and shouting Sieg Heil? I do not think that is a reasonable reaction to the indeed blatant overuse of the Nazi accusation.

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As I stated before, both regimes committed unspeakable atrocities, thus any comparison to them is also a comparison to those atrocities.

I don't think that is true. A comparison of his phrases to Nazi phrases does not mean I accuse Trump of wanting to murder all Jews. I do not believe that. That does not mean I can not mention him doing it and possibly serving certain sentiments that have some closeness to the ideology.

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Oh, I completely disagree.  If you're going to traffic in these types of comparisons then who you target and why becomes very important.  Why, because it determines your intent.  If you apply these labels to one person, or group, but not to another, especially one that the comparisons is more apt, then one is left to ask why in one case and not the other?  In this case the answer is clear, because doing it against Trump attacks people you disagree with and doing it in the other alienates people who are on your side.

Well, I'd argue let's go after Omar and Hillary and Trump for their respective dubious tropes, they all deserve critizism (I would personally see Trump as the worst offender of the three, but these nuances don't really matter). Using your own point made here, I can just as well argue that anyone who crosses any name from the list, including Trump's name, does so for reasons of ideology and shows his intent.

On the specific example, there's also the issue that all spotlight is on Trump while most people including me won't know much about the groups [La Raza] you mentioned. They are fringe like the proud boys; Trump or Hillary or Omar are not. Especially Trump of course, he is the one running for POTUS. Of course he draws additional scrutiny and one does not have to conclude every critizism with the words "but, of course, similar things must be said about our own fringe - and sadly maybe not always all that fringe - elements within the left". That such issues exist, well, I'd have no problem with a thread addressing those issues either. They just don't always have to mix.

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, if we're using propaganda as a benchmark than North Korea is more Nazi than the Nazis themselves.  The point isn't whether someone, or some regime echoes certain aspects of that regime, or Stalinism, it's whether echoing some parts of it justifies equating that person the the ideology as a whole.  Because whether you like it or not, when you make the comparison you're doing it completely, in every aspect.  Very, very few people are nuanced enough to see such a comparison and think, "well, they certainly did echo Nazi sentiments with that statement, but I will, of course, rationally disconnect that comparison to the worst atrocities of the Nazi regime when I consider this comparison".  This simply does not happen. The very reason the comparison is used is to fully equate the person in question to every aspect of that regime. Even if that is not the intent, it is the effect you will achieve.

I have a wholly different take on this, as stated before. Honestly, in this thread the only person who claims the OP, intentionally or not, effectively fully equates Trump to every aspect of the Nazi regime is you. Most other people here (except for those that just want to slam liberal threads) seem to be nuanced enough to get that this is not what he was doing or intended to do. If folks take it an other way, it can be explained and most fair-minded people will at least see the explanation as valid, even when they do not agree.
You yourself are among those, as you said, very few people that is nuanced enough to rationally disconnect Nazi phrases from every aspect of Nazi atrocities. Because you very well can follow me on that path rationally. You just still seem to insist that other people can not. And sure some probably can't, but what gives. They should not dominate the path of the conversation.

 

(10-06-2023, 01:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The culture is immaterial. Do they mirror the actual actions of the Nazi regime is the question at hand. Do they round up political dissidents and either "reeducate" them or kill them? Yes. Do they actively stifle any dissent, often in brutal ways? Yes. Do they use the citizenry to spy on each other and report "anti-state" behavior to the authorities? Yes. Do they place "undesirable" ethnicities in concentration camps and then exterminate them? Again yes. Do they engage in provocative and aggressive behavior with neighboring states, claiming their territories as their own? Yes.

I totally get your rationale. It's just, still any references to the Nazi regime will fail on a rhetorical level, for indeed most people associate Nazi ideology with the supremacy of the anglo-saxon (or Aryan, to be precise) race, and hence for China and Korea other unflattering terms and comparisons are applied. I mean, everything you said about China can be said about the Stalin regime on an even larger scale, and still we do not call them a Nazi regime either. We call them a communist regime and are fine with it. Same with China. When Xi comes out and shouts our honour means loyalty, I might reconsider.

The Nazi comparison, in this case, stems from using a phrase commonly used by Nazis (and again, even if it is coincidental the language used by Trump here is abhorrent to me - I feel that should be mentioned plenty). And also from the observation that Trump is a repeated offender, like when he called the press the enemy of the people, sees very fine people within white supremaacist's ranks, gets endorsed by far-right Naziesque groups and then some (at least that's my perspective). It does not exactly fall out of thin air. For sure, my personal opinion would be that he is taking tropes from questionable sources and is too gullible and reckless to reflect before repeating them as his own. "Just" that. But please let me mention he uses Nazi phrases when he uses Nazi phrases, I'd urge you to do the same when any liberal does it.