10-07-2023, 12:50 PM
(10-06-2023, 04:42 PM)hollodero Wrote: As I said, it was way overused and there are many strange people around who shout Nazi at everyone who does not align with them, and cops certainly are a particularly common enemy of the ideologically blinded. Sorry for saying "weird", it's just a term, that expresses that while I do not doubt such instances repeat themselves often, it is still not how a common person would act.
The fact that is is used in such a cavalier manner should give anyone pause to use it at all.
Quote:I don't think anyone here tried to equate Trump with the Nazi ideology as a whole. I for one made quite an effort to make that distinction clear, and I diid not see anyone else claim that Trump is in fact a Nazi.
Which leads me to the main point of the evening, there also are lots of unfair communism or Stalinism or antisemitism accusations around. But that does not mean one can not complain about Omar's language and she has now a free pass. And you do not, you critizise her harshly over it, and I don't quite see the huge qualitative distinction between her case and the Trump case. If you have issues with her using her kind of language, I don't think you can scold folks for doing the same thing when it comes to Trump. You might say Nazi is in a sense even worse or carries even more baggage, and that is true. But what is the alternative when Trump or anyone actually uses Nazi phrases, are folks expected to be silent about it unless it's really while standing under a swastika with a raised arm and shouting Sieg Heil? I do not think that is a reasonable reaction to the indeed blatant overuse of the Nazi accusation.
You don't have to equate him to Nazism as a whole, the moment you make a Nazi comparison that is done for you. This is precisely why I despise the comparison.
Quote:I don't think that is true. A comparison of his phrases to Nazi phrases does not mean I accuse Trump of wanting to murder all Jews. I do not believe that. That does not mean I can not mention him doing it and possibly serving certain sentiments that have some closeness to the ideology.
Of you made the comparison I would understand that. Many would not. When many, if not most, others make the comparison they are doing so in totum.
Quote:Well, I'd argue let's go after Omar and Hillary and Trump for their respective dubious tropes, they all deserve critizism (I would personally see Trump as the worst offender of the three, but these nuances don't really matter). Using your own point made here, I can just as well argue that anyone who crosses any name from the list, including Trump's name, does so for reasons of ideology and shows his intent.
Criticism is one thing, comparison to regimes steeped in mas murder is another.
Quote:On the specific example, there's also the issue that all spotlight is on Trump while most people including me won't know much about the groups [La Raza] you mentioned. They are fringe like the proud boys; Trump or Hillary or Omar are not. Especially Trump of course, he is the one running for POTUS. Of course he draws additional scrutiny and one does not have to conclude every critizism with the words "but, of course, similar things must be said about our own fringe - and sadly maybe not always all that fringe - elements within the left". That such issues exist, well, I'd have no problem with a thread addressing those issues either. They just don't always have to mix.
A thread being made about them is not the issue. Despite the importance we sometimes ascribe to this place it is a postage stamp floating in the ocean in terms of public discourse. I am speaking of comparisons being made in the mass media or by public figure.
Quote:I have a wholly different take on this, as stated before. Honestly, in this thread the only person who claims the OP, intentionally or not, effectively fully equates Trump to every aspect of the Nazi regime is you. Most other people here (except for those that just want to slam liberal threads) seem to be nuanced enough to get that this is not what he was doing or intended to do. If folks take it an other way, it can be explained and most fair-minded people will at least see the explanation as valid, even when they do not agree.
You yourself are among those, as you said, very few people that is nuanced enough to rationally disconnect Nazi phrases from every aspect of Nazi atrocities. Because you very well can follow me on that path rationally. You just still seem to insist that other people can not. And sure some probably can't, but what gives. They should not dominate the path of the conversation.
I'm not saying the intention is to equate Trump with Nazism as a whole. I am, again, saying that making the comparison at all accomplishes exactly that for the vast majority of people. It's such a charged accusation, it cannot help but taint everything about the person and associate them with Nazism as a whole.
Quote:I totally get your rationale. It's just, still any references to the Nazi regime will fail on a rhetorical level, for indeed most people associate Nazi ideology with the supremacy of the anglo-saxon (or Aryan, to be precise) race, and hence for China and Korea other unflattering terms and comparisons are applied. I mean, everything you said about China can be said about the Stalin regime on an even larger scale, and still we do not call them a Nazi regime either. We call them a communist regime and are fine with it. Same with China. When Xi comes out and shouts our honour means loyalty, I might reconsider.
The only substantive difference between Nazism and Soviet/CCP communism is that Nazism used race as their justification and communism uses class. Their atrocities are equally vile and one could easily argue that communism is worse in terms of number of people murdered. Yet, for some odd reason, it's perfectly acceptable to wear a hammer and sickle shirt on the street. Hell, I had a PoliSci professor who was a self professed Soviet style communist. A topic for another thread I suppose.
Quote:The Nazi comparison, in this case, stems from using a phrase commonly used by Nazis (and again, even if it is coincidental the language used by Trump here is abhorrent to me - I feel that should be mentioned plenty). And also from the observation that Trump is a repeated offender, like when he called the press the enemy of the people, sees very fine people within white supremaacist's ranks, gets endorsed by far-right Naziesque groups and then some (at least that's my perspective). It does not exactly fall out of thin air. For sure, my personal opinion would be that he is taking tropes from questionable sources and is too gullible and reckless to reflect before repeating them as his own. "Just" that. But please let me mention he uses Nazi phrases when he uses Nazi phrases, I'd urge you to do the same when any liberal does it.
Then use terms like xenophobe or bigot. They accurately describe the man without the attendant baggage of comparisons to Nazism. You are, of course, more than welcome to make the comparison if you wish, as is anyone in a country without laws against that type of speech. But unless it is made against a person who adheres to the tenants of national socialism I'm going to take issue for it for the reasons I've stated.
