Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[CJD]

(10-10-2023, 09:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's not that complicated.  The Palestinians had far more land when Israel was created than they do now.  Why is this?  Because they deliberately participated in numerous military actions aimed at the destruction if Israel.  Do I agree with Israel seizing the land after defending themselves successfully against Arab aggression?  No, ultimately it would have been better for them, morally if for no other reason, to not do so.  Do I think there wouldn't still be ongoing attempts to destroy Israel even if they had done so?  Absolutely.  This isn't a political struggle, it is a religious one.  Far too many Muslim majority nations see the destruction of Israel as a religious duty.  Why you continue to ignore their embracing terrorism as a means of retaliation is beyond me.

They defended themselves against an effort to colonize and confiscate their land, which prompted Israel (And the powers backing them) to take more and more land until they were backed into two small areas which are now effectively under control of Israel. I don't know if you're intentionally sugar coating the scenario to make Israel sound less cruel, but morally, it would have been better for them to never colonize the area to begin with.

The terminology "destroy Israel" is rather inflammatory, in my opinion. Israel did not exist until land was taken from the Palestinians to create it. It makes perfect sense that they'd want to un-do that seizing of land.

Imagine if, backed by British forces, a group of people settled in Texas and began confiscating homes and land from the people living there. They created a new nation called, I don't know, Mexicana. Slowly backing those people into the bay of Houston and occupying the city to control the remainder of the Texans still residing in the area (the ones they had not killed, deported, imprisoned or otherwise forced to be refugees elsewhere).

Do you think it would be unreasonable for the Texans to fight back against this effort to remove them from their homes?

And, if there were violent outbursts from the native Texans, do you think it would be correct for the media to paint those efforts as a group of terrorists trying to "destroy Mexicana"?

Your first sentence was "It's not that complicated," which I vehemently disagree with. 

Quote:To which I would counter with this.  Much has been made in this thread about "understanding" the Palestinian actions of the past few days and why they felt they were necessary.  Why not such call for an "understanding" of why Israel had conducted themselves as they have the past sixty plus years?  Do you think Israel has had no cause to respond or act as they have?


Even if you refuse to grant the same appeal for understanding to Israel that this thread demands for the Palestinians, one must ask a simple question.  How can you even attempt to side with a people, regardless of how just you believe their ultimate cause to be, that would condone, and encourage, the wanton slaughter of civilians?  This includes the beheading of infants, the livestream murders of hostages,  the kidnapping and gang raping of women, the wholesale and deliberate slaughter of families in their homes.  If we're discussing a people who would accept, and encourage, such actions, then you are correct, I have a very hard time expressing sympathy for them, no matter how valid their initial grievances were.

Understanding why people are behaving the way they do is not a justification for it. I understand why Hamas and the Palestinians hate Israel. I do not support them killing and ravaging innocent Israelis. 

In terms of understanding why Israel conducted themselves the way they have, I think people do. They were expelled from their ancestral home centuries ago and still feel a link to it now. That's understandable. Especially considering the fact that Jewish people, historically, have been mistreated for Millenia by...so many governing bodies across the world.

The oppression and systemic removal and/or subjugation of the Palestinian people who currently live on the land they have an ancestral link to is not an appropriate response to the desire to re-establish that ancestral link though.

There are viewpoints in which different people view situations. My viewpoint is in respect to the power imbalance between two groups of people. Oppressed groups lashing out against oppression is destructive, often not helpful and often inhumane in its own right. This can manifest in truly ghastly and horrible acts, as we are seeing right now. But it's coming from the anguish of being oppressed.

The violence of the oppressor on the other hand...It's a lot harder to reckon with. The Palestinians are captives in their own land, they have no control over their own fate and are, essentially, completely dependent upon the actions of those around them for their very survival.

The Israelis have complete control over their own fate, their land, their governance and the fate of their people.

And once you bring in the fact that both sides are acting based on religious (and therefore rigid and illogical) standpoints, you have a situation that will not be resolved until the oppressor stops oppressing or one of the groups is completely dead (which is incredibly difficult to do).

The cards are in Israel's hands. They just refuse to play them.