10-11-2023, 11:22 AM
(10-11-2023, 01:30 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: They defended themselves against an effort to colonize and confiscate their land, which prompted Israel (And the powers backing them) to take more and more land until they were backed into two small areas which are now effectively under control of Israel. I don't know if you're intentionally sugar coating the scenario to make Israel sound less cruel, but morally, it would have been better for them to never colonize the area to begin with.
The terminology "destroy Israel" is rather inflammatory, in my opinion. Israel did not exist until land was taken from the Palestinians to create it. It makes perfect sense that they'd want to un-do that seizing of land.
Imagine if, backed by British forces, a group of people settled in Texas and began confiscating homes and land from the people living there. They created a new nation called, I don't know, Mexicana. Slowly backing those people into the bay of Houston and occupying the city to control the remainder of the Texans still residing in the area (the ones they had not killed, deported, imprisoned or otherwise forced to be refugees elsewhere).
Do you think it would be unreasonable for the Texans to fight back against this effort to remove them from their homes?
And, if there were violent outbursts from the native Texans, do you think it would be correct for the media to paint those efforts as a group of terrorists trying to "destroy Mexicana"?
Your first sentence was "It's not that complicated," which I vehemently disagree with.
Understanding why people are behaving the way they do is not a justification for it. I understand why Hamas and the Palestinians hate Israel. I do not support them killing and ravaging innocent Israelis.
In terms of understanding why Israel conducted themselves the way they have, I think people do. They were expelled from their ancestral home centuries ago and still feel a link to it now. That's understandable. Especially considering the fact that Jewish people, historically, have been mistreated for Millenia by...so many governing bodies across the world.
The oppression and systemic removal and/or subjugation of the Palestinian people who currently live on the land they have an ancestral link to is not an appropriate response to the desire to re-establish that ancestral link though.
There are viewpoints in which different people view situations. My viewpoint is in respect to the power imbalance between two groups of people. Oppressed groups lashing out against oppression is destructive, often not helpful and often inhumane in its own right. This can manifest in truly ghastly and horrible acts, as we are seeing right now. But it's coming from the anguish of being oppressed.
The violence of the oppressor on the other hand...It's a lot harder to reckon with. The Palestinians are captives in their own land, they have no control over their own fate and are, essentially, completely dependent upon the actions of those around them for their very survival.
The Israelis have complete control over their own fate, their land, their governance and the fate of their people.
And once you bring in the fact that both sides are acting based on religious (and therefore rigid and illogical) standpoints, you have a situation that will not be resolved until the oppressor stops oppressing or one of the groups is completely dead (which is incredibly difficult to do).
The cards are in Israel's hands. They just refuse to play them.
You're omitting some key facts. Israel did not create itself. It didn't magically appear overnight. Any blame for those displaced does not fall on them, it falls on those who enabled the creation of Israel. Of course, once created, they are responsible for their own conduct. And they have been attacked almost relentlessly since that time. Their choices were/are to fight back or die. The Palestinians were represented by numerous Arab states in these conflicts. Their backers proved insufficient to achieve the goal of eliminating the state of Israel. Your view of Israel as the oppressors and the Palestinians as a displaced people with no nation or agency is a much more recent phenomena. This status quo occurred after Israel successfully defended themselves from several wars of aggression involving several Arab nations.
Again, would it have been better for Israel not to seize more land after winning those wars, yes. Doing so would certainly provide them with the moral high ground. But would doing so prevent further attacks and the asymmetric warfare that goes on to this day, absolutely not. Israel will be under attack until they no longer exist, the goal of numerous Arab nations and Iran, or religious fanatics of both Judaism and Islam stop being religious fanatics, i.e. never.
So, I will again point out that your current view of Israel as the big stick in this scenario only occurred after successfully defending themselves in several wars meant to eradicate them as a state. And if the current atrocities are any indication, as a people as well. So, while I could sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, their continued support of terrorism, as well as gang rape, kidnapping, torture, the deliberate murder of children and infants, means I no longer do. The fact is what they consider their homeland and is now within the borders of Israel are gone. Israel is not going to give them up. So your choices are this, find a new homeland (make Gaza part of Egypt for example) or continue as is. The two state solution is never going to work, because at the end of the day neither party really wants it. The Israelis have decided they have control of their ancestral homeland and aren't giving it up, and the Muslims in the area won't be happy until Israel is a memory.
Sympathize, empathize and understand all you want (just for one side oddly enough), but that's the reality.
