10-11-2023, 12:50 PM
(10-11-2023, 12:12 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If white people were being oppressed and, as some on the right like to claim, subject to genocide (via the immigration and subsequent children of non-white people), then people fighting for white people's rights would be among the same moral grounds as Palestinians who do not condemn the actions of Hamas.
The major difference is that white people are not oppressed or being genocided. It's a fantasy cooked up in white supremacists' minds. That's why they're called "supremacists" and not freedom fighters.
Interestingly enough the same people sympathizing with the Palestinians would also be condemning the "white people" in your example. Are the Palestinians subject to genocide? That's a rather weighty accusation for which I've seen no proof. Are they being round up and exterminated?
Quote:To support Hamas in their war against the IDF, to thousands or maybe millions of Palestinians, is a genuine fight against their displacement and extermination.
If you believe that, good for you. Just be prepared for me to find you (you in the plural), and anyone like you a reprehensible person undeserving of further sympathy. If you support the actions of Hamas, in any way shape or form, you are no better than the "men" chopping the heads of infants in front of their parents.
Quote:I imagine a lot of Palestinians are suffering through a moral quandary that is wanting their freedom, recognizing that Hamas is fighting against their oppressors but not agreeing with the horrid acts that Hamas is committing against Israeli civilians.
And imagine you must, because I haven't heard a single person say so publicly. I have seen numerous instances of people justifying it though, some coming from members of Congress.
Quote:Or, alternatively, it's possible a lot of Palestinians are not aware of all that Hamas is doing or believe it to be a misinformation campaign led by the Israelis to sway support against their fight for freedom.
Unlikely. But believe what you will.
Quote:White supremacists do not suffer from such a moral quandary. They're literally just racists.
Antisemites do not suffer from such a moral quandary. They're literally just racists. And a lot of them have been exposing themselves of late.
(10-11-2023, 12:22 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Are you saying Israel was created against the Israelis' will? I don't understand what you mean here. Of course they didn't create themselves overnight. They were backed by the British, who were the chief culprits in the original seizing of land from the Palestinians. They were attacked relentlessly because they were occupying stolen land. You can phrase it in a way that makes them sound like they were on the defensive as much as you want, but the thing that will never change is that the land they resided on during those wars was taken from the people who lived there by an outside force. Whether that outside force was purely British, purely Zionists or a mixture of the two is immaterial. The land was seized. There were struggles to gain it back from the people who were given the land. Israel won those struggles.
Yes, Israel fought off attempts to exterminate them
Quote:That's the exact problem. Israel seized their land, they defended it against attempts to reclaim it and are now settled there.
As you say, that UK seized the land. Israel defended it.
Quote:There is no compromise that will make either group happy. It would be unjust to tell the Palestinians to just go find somewhere else to live. It would be unjust to tell Israelis who have lived in the area for almost 100 years to vacate now. The toothpaste is already out of the tube.
On this we agree.
Quote:The correct solution would have been for Israel to have never been created in the first place.
That's not a solution, that's a fantasy, and an unhelpful one at that. Don't worry though, many state actors are looking to rectify that "error".
Quote:Since that's obviously not possible anymore, the next best solution would be for Israel to stop oppressing Palestinians and be extremely conciliatory in negotiations about a potential dual state or blended state scenario. Israel are the victimizers (or the benefactors of the victimizers at the very least) in this conflict, they should be the ones to budge, not the Palestinians.
As we both agree, a two state solution will not work as neither party actually wants it. Where we differ is you place the lions share of the blame for this on Israel.
Quote:Of course, as we've already said, they (along with the Palestinians) are filled with religious fervor, so that will never happen either.
We again agree.
Quote:So where do we go from here? Terroristic violence was the obvious next step. The backlash will likely be fierce. I wouldn't be surprised if Gaza were leveled at the end of this. I just hope the Palestinians find a way to flee the area before that happens.
There are only two possible outcomes here. Either the Palestinians give up their claim and live elsewhere, or Israel ceases to exist, with all the attendant consequences of that. Anything else is a pipe dream and the current situation will continue. Blame whoever you want, justify any action you want on either side, but that's what it boils down to. Religion allows for no other possibility, both Judaism and Islam.
In the meantime I will comfortably condemn, unequivocally, the actions of Hamas, regardless of any perceived provocation or justification. I am very comfortable making such a moral stance. I realize others feel differently, including every single representative of the Palestinians I have heard speak on this issue, as well as several Dem members of Congress.
