Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[Dill]

(10-11-2023, 06:36 PM)basballguy Wrote: Haven't Jews been slaughtered by ME Muslims for centuries?  Doesn't it trace back to even before the Ottoman Empire?  Do you think Palestinians are going to suddenly stop hating Jews and stop murdering them in cold blood if they were awarded independence or even all of Israel?  There's literally centuries of data that says no, they won't.  

I know you aren't talking to me and I also lack a lot of knowledge on the conflict but you seem to be lacking some basic knowledge yourself.  

Don't know why you think I'm not talking to you. I've answered several of your posts in some detail.

But about your "centuries of data that says no" . . . .  Say what???

Until 1938, there is not much difference between Muslims and Christians when it comes to persecuting Jews.
Though I think one could make a case there were places where Muslims made more effort to integrate
Jews in their community.

The first Crusade (1096) began with an attack on Jews in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres
All Jews were expelled from England in the 13th century by Edward I (That mean king in the movie Braveheart).
Jews were ghettoized on the Continent, and there were repeated massacres and Pogroms.
Then most of the Jewish population of Spain was expelled in the 16th century under the Inquisition.
But maybe you've heard of a more recent event called the Holocaust? Really nothing like that on the Muslim side.

Jews living under Muslims have also suffered, sometimes thriving, but in some places subject to recurrent masscare
as in Europe. 5,000 were killed in Granada in 1066. In Morocco there were periodic massacres of Jews. Some in
other places, but less regularly, it seems to me. Here is a Jewish source for information about life under Islam.
https://jewishaction.com/opinion/legal-ease-whats-the-truth-about-muslim-anti-semitism/

Their status varied across time and across many countries, but as Dhimmis, along with Christians, they were considered
people of the book. They paid a tax, were allowed to worship, often forbidden from holding military or state office.
Aside from that second class citizenship, they often thrived as well or better than under Christians. As with Christians,
massacres were tied to local politics and class wars. "Hate" is never a cause of persecution. It is an effect of other forces.

And earlier Jewish communities were given to massacring "idolators" as well, where they had the civic power. The key to understanding this behavior in all three religions, I'd say, lies the embrace of all three of the 1st commandment--"You shall have no other gods before you." The key to understanding why it doesn't happen in some times and places is the effect of cosmopolitanism--of living together in relative political equality and economic interdependence. (I once gave SSF some instruction on that topic (on the Merkel thread), in answer to his question--"why aren't Jews killing people now?")

So I'd say there aren't "centuries of data" suggesting Muslims will never stop persecuting Jews any more than there are centuries of data suggesting Christians will not stop persecuting them. The roots of Muslim persecution of Jews are the same as those of Christian persecution of Jews--perceived economic and political threat expressed in religious terms, often deliberately whipped up in religious terms. The solution is the same as it has always been--cosmopolitanism, civil and political order separated from religion and based on human rights.

The argument that "hatred" proceeds from religious grounds simply separates the current conflict from its actual, material causes. There is no reasoning with or redeeming a group like Hamas. They must be destroyed. But if another Hamas arises out of the desolate prison of Gaza, it will not be because Muslims just hate Jews. It will be because millions of Muslims remain condemned to an open air prison for yet another generation. Something that does not have to be. It will not be because millions of other Palestinians, among the most secular of all Arab Muslims, cannot be reasoned with.