12-22-2023, 06:52 PM
(12-22-2023, 04:14 PM)Dill Wrote: The US was in a similar situation fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq, and killed a large number of civilians as well--yet proportionately far less than what Israel is doing now. And the reward we reaped for that was ISIS and a return to Iraq. That's why the US (i.e., our intel/military establishment) does see alternatives.
20,000 dead is already more than Israel killed in the 1982 Lebanon invasion--the invasion which created Hezbollah--and they aren't half done in Gaza yet.
As far as "who's to blame?" It comes back to the dispossession and occupation. You drive people off their land, pen them up in an open
air prison denying them citizenship and human rights, then you cannot be surprised when after generations despair and oppression, a small mass of
fighting age males breaks out and inflicts what damage they can. And you cannot be surprised if an insurgent fighting force without tanks and aircraft and no ground separate from civilians "buries themselves in innocent civilians." If Israel votes into office people who consider such realistic assessments "apologies for terrorism" then the cycle will certainly continue.
The Lebanon War pretty much neutralized the PLO's 15,000 man fighting force--an initial success--but pushed it in the more dangerous (for Israel) direction of diplomatic solution. Within 10 years that physical threat was replaced by Hezbollah, with 25,000 men in uniform and another 40,000+ reservists, all behind sophisticated lines of defense (including anti-aircraft) and one of the worlds largest reserves of state of the art missiles--including smart intermediate-range missiles, not Hamas-style Qassams.
As they watch massive bombing of helpless civilians in Gaza, Israel supporters with some geopolitical sense should be thinking about where Israel's security will be five years from now. They should be thinking of US security as well, given that we are now joined at the hip with Israel, for both the war and occupation.
Israel always benefits from something of a double standard. When the US unleashes on an adversary, great care is taken to at the very least create an appearance of humanitarian concern. It may not always be an accurate perspective, but minimizing impact to non-combatants is avoided as much as it can be. Or at least our government is willing to go out of it's way to convince people both in the US and around the world that we're not wanton murderers.
Israel seems to have a FU card when it comes to murdering adversaries. Responses are often expected to be disproportionate and without apology.
Despite this, I favor Israel in this conflict. I don't say that because I agree with their tactics or heavy handedness. I say it because they are the only liberal nation in the region, and one of the historically most liberal in the world. I want them to succeed, although they've definitely taken an unfortunate authoritarian turn of late (as many western nations have).
I regard fundamentalist Islam much the same as I do evangelical Christianity. I dislike their culture gaining influence here or anywhere. Liberals who support organizations like Hamas out of sympathy for the unfortunate victims of the war should take care to compartmentalize their reasoning.. Women, homosexuals, atheists, even believers of other persuasions would likely not fare well in most nations governed by Islamic authorities. In many cases they would be in real physical danger by merely openly existing. Most of those people, however, would be just fine in Tel Aviv.
I also intensely dislike Nazis and any other far right shitbag organization that regularly licks the balls of Donald Trump. Surprisingly, or maybe not, there seems to be a bit of a strange alignment between Jew hating YPIPO and Jew-hating Muslims. Swastikas are cool again in the most left-wing of protests. Even a surprising number of nonwhite public figures seem willing to embrace Nazi iconography and Jew-hatred despite the obvious incongruence of other core beliefs. How does this shit even happen?
If the popular narrative conflict becomes Muslims and Nazis somehow uniting against Jews, then I'm for the Jews all day long regardless of tactics. The Israel situation has never been perfect, but it beats the hell out of a world where laughably hard-right groups like the aforementioned gain public sympathy ahead of the Jewish state. In that, I'd say I'd hope that the Israelis back off in time to conserve the perception of being sympathetic rather than oppressive. It's likely too late, and they may find themselves regretting it.
