03-20-2024, 06:25 PM
(03-20-2024, 05:23 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL I remember when you instructed Fred to "debate like an adult" on the "LE Leaks" thread. He demonstrated the double standard immediately (#280). Adults don't resort to constant name-calling in place of rational argument and evidence.
LOL, thank you for the editorial.
Quote:You do me the "courtesy" of calling me a racist, antisemitic, Hamas supporter, while dodging my questions about your criteria for defining "terrorist supporters." That's not the behavior of someone looking for "an honest answer."
Well, I do find you to be antisemitic, but I do not automatically equate criticism of Israel to antisemitism. I have never dodged your questions on my criteria, I have detailed them quite clearly in this very thread. Now, onto the actual questions.
Quote:1. Israel has a right to exist as part of a two-state or one-state solution to the Palestinian problem. It doesn't have right to exist as an ethnic state which occupies territory gained in war with intent to cleanse and annex.
As Israel has a right to self defense, as you would clearly agree given your future question, I must counter that any territory lost by Arab nations during their wars of aggression with Israel are their fault, not Israel's. I have stated, numerous times, that it would have been better for Israel not to annex territory they conquered in defensive wars. But I place the blame for those action more squarely on the aggressors in those conflicts. More problematically, Israel was created as an ethnic state for the Jewish people after the Holocaust. To deny it's right to exist as an ethnic state is to deny its right to exist. So, in summation, you do not think Israel should be able to exist in any form it has since the end of WW2. Noted.
Quote:2. To repeat: I'll state "unequivocally" that Hamas meets the U.S./EU definition of a terrorist organization. But because the U.S. doesn't apply the label consistently to all who merit it, I regard its application as generally political rather than descriptive. The job of propagandists is to get people to accept and apply such labels without thinking; I won't go along. That means nothing has changed in the last four days; I still don't use the term "terrorist" as a descriptor.
Copy that. So Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organization, nor are any of the 9/11 hijackers terrorists in your eyes. Again, noted.
Quote:3. Not sure how you are defining "atrocities." Bad stuff Arabs do? If you mean war crimes and violations of IHL, then I'd say the record shows the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life. But when I've mentioned their sordid record in the past you've simply denied/ignored the facts or introduced a time limit. Do you mean just since last year or what?
You could stick to the actual dictionary definition of the word atrocity, or continue with your hyperbole. So, you do think the IDF is a worse actor than Hamas. Thank you, and again, noted.
Quote:Now you can do me the courtesy of answering the following questions.
Should I go straight to answering them or throw in a lot of silly little jabs first?
Quote:1. Do Palestinians have the same human rights as Israelis, both as individuals and as a people?
All humans beings do, so yes.
Quote:2. If your answer to 1 was "yes," then has the state of Israel violated those rights? This is not a poll, explain why not if you think not.
Yes, but not to the extent or in the manner that you believe. Again, I consistently hold the Arab aggressor nations more at fault for the diaspora of the Palestinian people. Nor can I fully condemn Israel's refusal to let people hostile to their existence within the borders. But, ultimately the answer is yes. I would say most especially in the West Bank.
Quote:3. And if the answer to 1 was "yes," do Palestinians have a right to self defense? Again, if not, explain why not. Flippancy ("because they don't) is a dodge.
Thank you for the pedantry. Yes, but, again, not in the manner in which your clearly believe. In the exact same way I do not think the Native Americans have the right to strike out at the United States in attempts to reclaim what they have lost. Nor do I think that indiscriminately lobbing unguided rockets (a redundant, but necessary descriptor) into Israel is self defense, nor is invading Israel and engaging in wanton slaughter and rape of civilians, and the kidnapping of infants and toddlers self defense. Most especially when it is done with such evident glee.
Quote:4. I have said that Hamas needs to be destroyed if a two-state solution is going to work. Do you consider that statement "support for Hamas"?
Again, show your work. What is your standard for determining whether a statement about the Gaza war supports Hamas or not?
Actually, I really haven't, as I do not think a two state solution will ever work. I do think Hamas needs to be destroyed, and it would be simple to do so if Iran and other nations such as Qatar stopped actively funding/assisting them. But the two state solution is a non-starter at the end of the day. Neither party really wants it and the respective religious hardliners will never allow it. Could there be peace? Yes, and I think it was inching in that direction with several Arab nations moving towards normalizing relations with Israel. Which is exactly what Iran and their terrorist lackeys in Hamas wanted to stop when they invaded Israel on 10/07/23. They got a lot of what they wanted since, and they're relying on people like you in the West to get them the rest of their wish list. And they are willing to sacrifice every single civilian in Gaza to achieve that goal. Which is why they are definitively, and demonstrably, worse than Israel in every regard and no equation of substance can reasonably be drawn. Clear enough for you?
