Pelosi Took responsibility for Jan. 6th

[hollodero]

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I have no debate on anything you said here. However, This was still fresh at the time. I think he believed it was stolen.

Which I would have to consider to be a failing on his part, if he really believed it (which I am not certain of, but I don't know). He had no basis aside from his own ego, which I would describe as a narcissistic one, to actually believe it was rigged. His own DOJ, up to Mr. Barr, told him that it wasn't. His close advisors told him that it wasn't. Mr. Pence, who was nothing but subservient to this point, told him that it wasn't. All the states, all the courts told him it wasn't. Yet Trump chose to believe and claim that it was. There's a point where I can not really use this alleged belief of his, which amounts to sheer denial of reality, as an excuse. He failed in his duty to do everything in his power to prevent this escalation from happening and I see no way around it, even while trying to stay as unbiased and neutral as possible.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: People believed it was stolen.

Because they believed him. But that is tough for me to understand anyway, why people just believe him, but that's another can of worms.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: To be fair, it's not like these people wore patches stating they were with a specific group of people

Actually, quite some of them apparently did exactly that, they were not disguised at all. Eg this website (Voice of America), states that "clues into the rioters' affiliation came from their clothes, signs, flags, banners and other markers, experts say. While some groups sought to disguise their ties, others flaunted their ideological affiliation. A group of Proud Boys in orange hats identified themselves on camera as members of a state chapter. The Three Percenters carried a U.S. Revolution-era American flag." - so well, imho they could have known. And even if not, even if one were to be ignorant towards flags and banners and orange hats and all that. I might give some leniency to bystanders that did not actually enter the building, but whoever entered the Capitol, the way I see it, has no real excuse. It was at this point apparent enough that this turns into an extremists' riot.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Also, if you have a crowd of thousands of people and these groups interject themselves into the middle of the crowd, where is the crowd to go where they would not be followed? 

Well, I'd say just walk away, stroll away on Penn Avenue, it's not like they would really follow you if you leave. Imho everyone could just have walked away without any hinderance at any time while things spiraled into an escalation.

(06-12-2024, 04:44 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: In the end, we have 2 sides who keep critical information secret while twisting other information to make the other look bad. We never get the whole story, and probably never will. So, we discuss and hopefully meet somewhere in the middle. Whatever conclusion we come up with is the most honest, even if it's far from the truth itself. 

Sure, I would never expect a Jan 6 committee to give me the whole truth without any spinning, I am not naive like that. Everything I know and believe to know for a fact though, as little as that actually is, leads me to the strong belief that Trump can not be seen as completely innocent - morally speaking - and the same goes for the people that entered the Capitol. No matter what they were led to believe, they knew it was wrong, are responsible for their actions and so is Trump.