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Sola Fide
#11
(04-26-2016, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I understand the concept that man has done nothing to deserve God's forgiveness, but I have never understood why Jesus had to die for it.

If I make a sacrifice to myself I am not making a sacrifice at all.

In the theology, the sacrifice of Jesus was to "erase" the sins of each person rather than "cover" them like a patch, which was the traditional Judaic belief.

In the early days of Judaism, the nature of Heaven was not discussed. It was not assumed that Heaven was a place for human souls. It was merely the place where God dwelt. And since God could not be viewed or understood by humans, Heaven would therefore not be a place for humans or humans souls. As to what would happen to humans when they died, no one knew. You lived your life on Earth and did what God told you to do because He was God. If you wanted to talk to God, you prayed. But if you had broken one of the Mitzvah (the 613 commandments from God in the Torah), God would not hear your prayer. Your 'sin' had to covered for the time that you were on Earth for God to hear you. This was done by going to the Temple, bringing a certain sacrifice of crops or animals to the Levites (the priest caste), and having them pray for your atonement. This sacrifice of foodstuffs also served a purpose of feeding the Priests, who represented a large portion of the population and produced no food. In a way, the early sacrifice system was a social service.

But this all goes back to schisms in early Judaism. The broadest schism concerned the Sadduccees and the Pharissees. The Sadduccees believed only what was in the Torah, the first five books of the Bible. In the beginning of Judaism, all Jews were Sadduccees. Over time, new writings appeared: prophecies from prophets, scripture interpretations from rabbis, etc. Some within Judaism felt these needed to be included into the worship. These would become the Pharissees. The Pharissees would become the forefathers of modern Judaism after the destruction of the Temple.


One of the new ideas supported by the Pharissees concerned Heaven. The belief that Heaven could also be a place for human souls was growing among some Jews and the Pharissees adopted this along with some other beliefs not adopted by the Sadduccees. The Sadduccees held most of the power right up to the time of Jesus. But the Pharissees beliefs were pretty popular and they were growing to almost equal the Sadduccees influence (there were probably more Pharissees at that time of Jesus than any other Jewish group, but they were still trying to gain political power). The Pharissees didn't develop the concept of humans in Heaven much further, just the thought that there might be an afterlife.

The sect split between the Pharissees and the Sadduccees was similar to the ideological splits between the Protestants and Catholic/Orthodox churches or the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. But unlike the more modern splits, the rift did not exhibit itself in actual warfare between the two sides. They actually co-existed relatively peacefully and the battle was fought with words and debate. This more peaceful disagreement was probably at least partially a result of Judah being taken over by the Romans.

The coming of the Romans brought a crises to the Jews. The Jews had been a province of other powers since they returned to the region (the Macedonians, Ptolemic Egypt, etc.). But those other powers merely took a tribute and left the Jews alone. The Romans were different. They actually showed up and felt a need to police and administer the area. This made the Jews uneasy and unruly, which in turn made the Romans feel a need to bring greater force. Tensions and anxiety in the area were very high. And these tensions brought two new reactionary sub-sects of the Pharissees: the Zealots and the Essenes.

Both groups adopted and developed Messianic philosophies from the Pharissees. The Zealots felt the need to expel the Romans through armed force and that a Messiah would come to lead them in this cause. The Essenes felt the need to retreat from society to isolated areas to worship and cleanse themselves in preparation for the coming of a Messiah... who would also bring an apocalypse. Because of their apocalyptic belief, the Essenes probably further developed the concept of human souls going to Heaven and what might be required for them to get there. Because of their monk-like ways, it is hard to know how much influence the Essenes had on overall society at the time. But it is very interesting that much of their beliefs carried over into Christianity.

With the growing concept that human souls might go to Heaven after life, there was an additional concern as to what might be required of a human to make that trip. The existing sacrifice system was felt sufficient to cover one's sins while alive so that you would be able to pray to God. But just covering the sins like bandaid did not seem sufficient to meet the needs of getting the soul into the presence of God in Heaven (I believe there was a belief that the mere proximity to God would obliterate any 'tainted' soul which approached Him). What would be needed would be a perfect sacrifice. And it would have to represent the sins of all of humanity. Most of the Jews did not believe that an animal or even a human could ever meet that requirement. Thus, the theological need for the only perfect thing, God, to create His own sacrifice.

And you know how the rest of the story goes...
[Image: 416686247_404249095282684_84217049823664...e=659A7198]





Messages In This Thread
Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-26-2016, 01:04 PM
RE: Sola Fide - fredtoast - 04-26-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Sola Fide - michaelsean - 04-26-2016, 03:48 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-26-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Sola Fide - fredtoast - 04-27-2016, 09:01 AM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-27-2016, 03:51 PM
RE: Sola Fide - fredtoast - 04-27-2016, 11:13 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-27-2016, 11:23 PM
RE: Sola Fide - XenoMorph - 04-27-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Sola Fide - xxlt - 04-27-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-26-2016, 03:21 PM
RE: Sola Fide - fredtoast - 04-26-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-26-2016, 05:22 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Nebuchadnezzar - 04-26-2016, 11:11 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Bengalzona - 04-27-2016, 04:04 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-26-2016, 03:41 PM
RE: Sola Fide - michaelsean - 04-26-2016, 03:43 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-26-2016, 03:44 PM
RE: Sola Fide - GMDino - 04-26-2016, 03:45 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-26-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Beaker - 04-26-2016, 10:40 PM
RE: Sola Fide - michaelsean - 04-26-2016, 11:02 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Rotobeast - 04-26-2016, 11:47 PM
RE: Sola Fide - GMDino - 04-27-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Sola Fide - Rotobeast - 04-27-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-27-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: Sola Fide - xxlt - 04-27-2016, 08:27 AM
RE: Sola Fide - GMDino - 04-27-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: Sola Fide - Belsnickel - 04-27-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: Sola Fide - GMDino - 04-27-2016, 08:56 AM
RE: Sola Fide - xxlt - 04-27-2016, 10:10 PM
RE: Sola Fide - Beaker - 04-27-2016, 06:17 PM

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