10-13-2016, 07:44 AM
(10-12-2016, 10:31 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Now you're just acting like a complete jackass.
Actually, I'm actively trying not to act like a jackass. If I were a jackass, I would do things like call you a complete jackass, tell you to stop acting like you're stupid, and that you're seriously making no sense right now.
Understand?
Quote:If you're not here to argue that Donald Trump is a sexual assaulter, then what the hell are you even arguing?
Yet, I'm the stupid one?
Quote:Because clearly I'm arguing he's not a sexual assaulter, yet you keep trying to tell me I'm wrong. I know you didn't call him a rapist, I was exaggerating. You haven't explicitly said Trump is a sexual assaulter, but it is quite obvious that-that is the argument you are trying to push, so stop acting like you're stupid.
I thought I explained myself pretty clearly. Obviously, I was wrong. If Trump did the things he described doing in the video then, yes, he sexually assaulted women. Yes, I base my argument on his own words describing what he purports to have done in his past. However, I acknowledge you could be correct in your assessment that Trump is a big ***** liar and his statements are just big ***** lies. Yuge lies! Okay? The best, yugest lies ever!
So operating under the assumption Trump was telling yuge lies because he is a yuge liar and he didn't actually "grab 'em by the *****," what that yuge liar lied about doing was sexual assault. Here is his quote/lie . . .
Quote:Trump: Yeah, that’s her. With the gold. I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know, I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
Bush: Whatever you want.
Trump: Grab ’em by the *****. You can do anything.
"When you're a star" doesn't constitute consent to "grab 'em by the *****."
Quote:Rudy said what he said because he wanted to be careful with his words.
"That's what he's talking about. Whether it happened or not, I don't know. How much exaggeration was involved, I don't know."
No, Rudy Giuliani said, "That's what he's talking about" because what Donald Trump did/lied about doing is sexaul assault because as a lawyer he knows "when you're a star" isn't consent to "grab 'em by the *****" or that "you can do anything." Giuliani knows that a woman's silence or immobility after someone "grab[s] 'em by the *****" doesn't mean "they let you do it." Giuliani is many things, but he isn't a total and complete idiot. Although, he does a pretty good impression of one from time to time. And that is why Rudy said what he said, okay?
Quote:If what he described is sexual assault, and you keep acting like you believe he actually did these things..... Does that not mean you think he's a sexual assaulter? You're seriously making no sense right now.
Earlier in our arguments I said......
To which you responded with.....
Right here you don't outright say Trump is a sexual assaulter, but it is quite clear to anyone with common sense that you are alluding to the fact that you believe Trump sexually assaulted women and is therefore a sexual assaulter. Yet now you're trying to back track and say "Whoa hey man, I never said that". If you didn't believe Trump sexually assaulted anyone you wouldn't be arguing so heavily against me and presenting so many ridiculous hypotheticals about "How many women out of a 100 would consent to Trump kissing them etc....".
The fact that you even ask those kinds of questions shows that you think Trump has kissed women without consent, which is sexual assault. Therefore, you believe Trump is a sexual assaulter.
Pay attention because I don't want to repeat myself again only to be called stupid because you can't comprehend the argument. Donald Trump may or may not have done the things he claimed in the video. I acknowledge he is a liar as are all politicians. However, what he claimed to have done in the video constitutes sexual assault. Even Giuliani admits what Trump was talking about is sexual assault. So I'm not really here to argue that "Donald Trump is a sexual assaulter," so much as I'm here to get YOU to acknowledge that the actions he described are sexual assault.
To summarize, this is less about Trump's actions and more about your denial.
(10-09-2016, 08:41 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Depends on what you mean by "sexual assault".
See this is the problem with this whole "sexual assault" thing. It's too open to interpretation and people can turn anything that can be considered "sexual assault" into what they want it to mean. As I have already mentioned before, people who are criticizing Trump don't know what Trump has actually done. All they know is that he said some negative things about women. They don't know what consensual and non-consensual things have happened between him and anyone else. Trump said some "rapey" comment and now everyone's shouting sexual assault.
(10-12-2016, 09:30 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Clearly you're the one that needs some clarity here. Let me break this down for you.
What you are doing is making an invalid argument. Why is your argument invalid? Because it makes false presumptions. You argument goes like this....
1. Trump said he gropes women.
2. Groping women is sexual assault.
3. Trump said he gropes women, therefore he is a sexual assaulter.
First of all, Trump never said he randomly goes around groping women . Trump said women will let you do anything to them when you're famous and continued in what sounded like a joking manner saying the infamous "grab em' by the *****" line. Trump never said he actually grabs women by the *****. He made the statement that women will let you do that. Regardless..... lets say Trump actually did say "I randomly grope women all the time". There's still a problem with your second premise that "Groping women is sexual assault". Well actually, no it isn't. Groping women without their CONSENT is sexual assault. Groping in itself is not sexual assault. It depends on the scenario in which the groping takes place.
People have made the word "groping" synonymous with "sexual assault" and that's the problem. When people start talking about "groping" they've already made up in their mind that whatever "groping" incident took place was sexual assault. But as I have already stated you have no idea who Trump has groped (if anyone) nor do you know whether or not the groping was consensual. You are assuming Trump goes around randomly groping women without their consent but have no proof of this, nor has Trump said he goes around randomly groping women without their consent.
Also keep in mind that consent does not mean someone will say "yeah you can grope me" as a way of showing consent. For some reason people seem to think that's what "consent" means, a verbal agreement. What a joke. Tell me what women (or man) you have verbally agreed to kiss before doing so.
What are you talking about? You're missing the point. There was no distinction to miss because what Trump said is NOT sexual assault. It depends on the context of the situation that determines whether or not the "groping" was sexual assault, not the groping itself. Someone could tell you "Hey man, I was with this woman last night and groped her so hard" and you would think it's sexual assault simply because he said he groped her because you have your rape culture hearing aids in.
I will say this again. Groping is NOT sexual assault. Groping without consent is. But you have no idea who has and who hasn't consented to anything Trump has done or possibly done to them. All you can do is fantasize in your mind how the "groping" took place and conclude that it either was or wasn't sexual assault, but either way it does not mean your conclusion is absolutely the right one.
That would be true if groping was sexual assault. Saying you groped someone is not the same as saying you literally sexually assaulted them. Groping can be both consensual and non-consensual. If Trump said "I grope women without their consent" then yeah, he would be saying he literally sexually assaults them.
No it's not fuzzy and I know exactly what he said. The problem here is that YOU don't see the distinction between sexual assault and groping.
I'm not "letting Trump off the hook". I said that he shouldn't have said what he said. All I'm doing is not joining the "he's definitely a sexual assaulter" club.
Trump did not admit to sexually assaulting anyone. He made some generalized broad statement about women and all the rape culturists are up in arms about it because they're sensitive to the word "*****".
Those last two quotes are just painfully embarrassing.
Your are correct sexism will always exist . . . as long as people like you are around to excuse it.
