European Muslim Hate Poll

[masterpanthera_t]

(02-15-2017, 11:28 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, what's up. Oh right. Our muslim hate's up.

Couple things. First, and I do not mean to diminish things, the numbers seem a bit high. I've developed a certain mistrust towards polls, especially regarding my country. Which is fueled by the fact that polls got it astonishly wrong at many of our latest elections. Comically, not-even-close wrong. Plus, the word "Zuwanderung" (migration) that was asked often is used in a way that excludes asylum seekers/refugees. When it's interpreted that way... I'm not so sure how opposed I myself would actually be.
A 50/50 split would be closer to my personal experience. Which is still staggering. So there's that.

This anti-muslim half... well, there is no sugercoating it, some of them are formed by our basket of deplorables. Which does exist, here, in the US and everywhere, Hillary was not wrong on that one. I explicitely have to add that it's not all of them. Some of these people are reasonable and make decent points I hardly can debunk completely.

Two things. For one, I want to help every poor soul that flees death and destruction from Syria. I don't expect them to fight for their country in a civil war where no side can be seen as the one who puts their country first. I also want to help those who are prosecuted in some 6th century backwards Arab country because they oppose the Sheikh, blog critical stuff or are gay or whatever. It's a moral obligation for the first group (well both groups) and the smart thing to do for the second group. Strengthen the moderates on every level, the potential reformers. Only way, the way I see it, to deal with Islam.

On the other hand, our politicians are too silent on many things. The far left is to be forgotten. They don't even consider limiting the numbers of refugees at ANY point and call everyone who sees things differently a whole lot of unpleasant, debate-stopping things. That pisses me off that they completely lost me. And it pisses so many people off that they go to the other extreme. 
There's things that need to be faced. Islam is not just a religion of peace, but rather an ideology that is very susceptible to radicalization. Because they are backwards in many middle eastern countries, lacking any kind of secularisation or Enlightenment. There is religious motivated violence, though the really good people deny that terror and stuff should play any role in an evaluation of islamic migration. I think the US has a moral obligation to accept Syrian refugees, too. But I do fully understand that your president wants to take a really close look at anyone entering from Yemen or these countries, as should we. People call that discrimination, to which I can say, so what, then it is. Additionally, it's the only smart thing to do.
I would very much prefer if islamic population would not exceed, say, 10% - for there seems to be evidence that once it's above that number, more and more muslims don't even care for the society they live in and stay amongst themselves - and rather radicalize in their own parallel society than getting more moderate in the secular surrounding.
Add in polls (yeah well, still mistrusted) that imply that more than half of muslims in Germany think Sharia is more important than the laws of the country they live in. That many muslims (and not only a few bad apples) think a woman should be a man's subject, it's ok to stone people or call for Rushdie's assassination and whatnot.

That is my take. I respectfully disagree with leftist folks on that question and get not so respectful responses in return. A behaviour that strengthens the right way more than fake news or Russia ever could. I make an effort to underline this point because I really feel it's the most important lecture Trump or other alt-right politicians should teach us.
Now, regarding muslim immigration, for me the first point (the moral obligation as a rich country to help those that flee death and destruction) still supersedes the concerns. But we're nearing problematic regions.

Now I said some potentially unpleasant things about muslims. I have to add that in my country, everything is peaceful and muslims are very decent folks and behave grateful. As they should. They are guests and should behave like guests, which is be polite and respect the house rules. This guy responsible for the Berlin attacks had no business being in Europe any longer, no business at all, and it makes me angry. As it makes many people angry. I do have to strike a blow for those that think politics fails them and we need to oppose policies and stop immigration. The absence of honest debate plays a major part in an increasing anti-muslim atmosphere. I do, however, not strike a blow for the deplorable part. There are folks so full of blind hatred towards muslims it's disgusting. Facebook is full of truely incredible hate speech. And it's a real concern.

There's a last reason to, say, restrict immigration. If we don't, the alt-righters win elections. Democracy.
This is a hot iron only the sincere man can carry. I can't and I know.

I will restrict my response simply to the anti-muslim stuff.  I will say that I agree broadly on the sensibilities here.  My caveat would be that while it is correct as a rich(er) country to take in refugees, I myself see no reason to take them in as citizens or with the same rights as citizens.  To clarify that statement, I am saying that yes it's a moral obligation to help those fleeing war, regardless of where they may be from, however, I don't see it as an immoral position to say that we will take you in as guests and potentially keep you in a different part of the country until we know for certain which of you will acclimate to our values.  Or even, saying we will keep you here on a temporary basis until your homeland has been stabilized, and we expect you to return. As Roto and I have discussed in other threads before, this would be inline with keeping our moral and humanitarian integrity intact, IMO, while maintaining the right balance of "our" values within our borders.  While I may be swayed by certain arguments for "diverse" thinking helping a society overall, I believe with the current climate of terrorism in the world that we must strike a balance where we help those in peril without adding unnecessary risks to the structure and views of our society.  At the least I'm open to other means of striking this balance which don't fall under "we must take in refugees without further debate or we deserve the label of xenophobes".  And yes I'm aware there are xenophobes who may share a similar end goal with a completely different reasoning to arrive at that goal.