I don't get it

[hollodero]

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: So the argument summed up is that the Russians are basically trying to destabilize the US and hurt its global influence by tearing apart its democracy.

I would describe it a bit more sophisticated, but sure.

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I guess what I'm getting at here is I don't see how telling the American public the truth about the DNC rigging of their own party is somehow going to cause this massive uprooting of American democracy and sow a huge distrust amongst the American public. As far as I can tell, most people see politicians as a bunch of no good lying, cheaters anyway. People are acting like Russia's hacking of the DNC suddenly made millions of voters have this epiphany that Clinton can't be trusted as if we were Adam and Eve taking our first bite out of the fruit from the tree of knowledge. But the thing is, people have felt this way about politicians for years.


I find it a bit shocking that people want to sit there and say that Russians are destroying our democracy by sowing distrust. Does America not do that every day with it's own media? Do politicians not do this in every election?

There's 3 main goals in every election that is void of any Russian interference and those goals are.....

1. To show that my policies are better than the other candidates.
2. To show that I'm more trustworthy than the other candidates.
3. To show that I have better moral character than the other candidates.

All three of these things take place in every election. But we want to act like the Russians are introducing us to distrust for the first time and destroying the very fabric of our democracy by telling the American public the truth about how the DNC was acting inappropriately.

In a broad sense, you're argueing on how effective Russian activities were. That I don't know.
What is without question is that they tried to influence the result by a series of propaganda attacks. For whatever reason, maybe Putin thinks he can influence Trump, maybe he indeed does have some kompromat in his hands, maybe Putin thinks a president Donald Trump will do the destabilization for him, maybe Putin just hated Hillary, but he had a reason and acted on it. That he acted on it is without doubt.

Can you honestly say that you don't see a problem with that?

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: My opinion? People in this country aren't mad and divided because the Russians leaked information about the DNC. That to me is absolutely ludicrous. 

Nope, people in America were mad and divided before.

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: People are mad because a billionaire TV reality star with no political experience whatsoever, that made offensive comments about women, hispanics, muslims etc... got elected. Who was it that released the video of Trump talking about grabbing women's private parts again? Who continually pushed this narrative that Trump was just some racist rich guy? Who was it that pushed this narrative that Trump just hates Muslims? Wants to take away women's rights? Is going to somehow bring back Jim Crow laws and revert our entire country back to the slave days?

Please stay honest. You overdramatize the opposition's stances to diminish the role your president plays. That is not a fair technique. I remember the red side talking about Obama, and Trump talking about how he's a Kenyan muslim. In light of things like that, this kind of finger-pointing is, how did you put it, absolutely ludicrous.

People aren't "mad" because Trump's a billionaire. People are mad because he is a permanent, not just the occasional liar, called Obama a sick guy based on a story inside his head, doesn't back down, estrangens the whole world, promised a great health care plan where everyone's covered and now pushes through a version that only help the rich folk. People are mad because he makes up stories about 3 million illegal votes, because he calls the media enemy of the people except for FOX, Breitbart and Infowars, because he gets his informations from Alex Jones and people like that, because his proposed budget cuts everything that helps the little, sick or old guy, because he doesn't show his tax returns although he promised, because there are shady connections between campaign members and Russia, because he's embarrassing your country, didn't really cut ties with his business and uses office to slam market chains that don't sell Ivanka stuff, because he attacks the judiciary, because he ties people to JFK assassinations and talks trash about muslim gold star wives, Arnie and everyone that critisizes him, because he is a hypocrite with his golf time amongst other things, and yes also because he is a proud, open sexist, because he tweets incredibly stupid nonsense and obviously is too dumb for the job, because of Bannon openly formulating sinister deconstruction goals who gets Trump's ear and a permanent place in the security council, because he is so incredibly vain and petty that he insists on huge crowd sizes, because he holds rallies, because he guts the EPA and is full-mode pro-pollution, there sure are more reasons out there,  make your pick.

Just to clarify your view on people's madness here.

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: And people want to say Hillary Clinton lost because the Russians hacked the DNC and released FACTUAL information that showed unfairness within their own campaign. Donald Trump did absolutely everything any man could ever do to lose the election except kill somebody and somehow people believe she lost because "Russia".

As I've already stated, sounds like a bunch of fear mongering to me. People like to use "phobia's' when describing things these days, so I guess you could say this is a huge case of Russia-phobia poking it's head out again. Americans should fear those big bad Russian guys because "KGB.....Vladimir Putin....and stuff".

Hillary lost because she made mistakes, was a bad candidate and - probably the main reason - your country was bound to go red again, as it is always bound to change president's colors every 8-12 years.
How Democrats see it, that doesn't matter.

So Russia-phobia... tell me again, are you ok with Russia annexing souvereign countries. Are you ok with a foreign power trying to meddle with your elections. Are you ok with them sponsoring right-wing parties all over the world in the clear and openly formulated intent to destablilize them. Are you ok with Russian fake news creating false narratives and misinformations that get widely spread in social media. Are you ok with oppressing opposition, arresting journalists and murdering opponents, things Putin does with cold blood and not even too hidden. Are you ok with Russian presence and Russian expansion into the Middle East and Northern Africa and Europe. Are you ok with campaign and even cabinet members that got paid by foreign powers like Turkey or Russia.

It's not so much about fear, it's about seeing things as they are. We Europeans are quite aware about Russian policies and Russian propaganda attacks, you are in sheer denial, for whatever reason.
I have a hunch about that reason too: Democrats said Russian influence was a problem, so as a counter-reaction it really isn't and Putin is in fact America's friend. That's the complete line of thinking I ascribe to you, feel free to correct this.

Also, you are the side being so afraid of muslims. Hard to see those people argueing with other people's phobias. I don't want to block Russians from anything, I just don't see Putin as good guy and trustworthy and don't think he should be influential in our democracies in any way, shape or form. This is not an extreme or phobic stance by any stretch.

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I find it ironic that people who hate Trump accused him of fear mongering about ISIS as a way to get his travel ban pushed, yet here they are fear mongering about the big bad Russian guys that will infiltrate our democracy and destroy it by releasing information about the DNC scandal. Now, I'm not saying that the Russians don't have any ill will toward us whatsoever. I'm not even saying that the Russians don't want to increase their influence around the world considering we want the same thing. 
What I'm saying, is that all this Russian fear mongering of them destroying our democracy through the release of hacked emails is a bunch of over-exaggerated hooey when we are doing far more to destroy our own democracy through our own media and political attacks against one another. It's not like Russia conjured up and meticulously planned out and initiated some story about the DNC cheating its way to the elections. THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Not because the Russians made it up, but because we, the Americans did it ourselves. But lets not talk about our self inflicting nature as Americans which is far more damaging than anything Russia has done. Lets just talk about how Vladmir Putin is possibly the antichrist ushering in the end of days. To me it's fear mongering to avoid our own faults.

Maybe it is used that way, that I can not tell. But it's not the whole story.

(03-22-2017, 09:42 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I am informing myself. I made this thread to get other peoples perspectives, not because I'm completely ignorant of everything. I wanted to see if anyone could tell me something I'm missing, because as it stands, it sounds like 99% fear mongeriing to me. Maybe I'll give a little breathing room and say 98%.

Asking why it's a problem that foreign powers get involved in your domestic affairs sure does sound a bit ignorant.