With Merkel's Foes in Disarray, Germany Defies the Trump Trend

[masterpanthera_t]

(05-03-2017, 03:47 PM)Dill Wrote: So what I am saying is that I don't see where a few Muslims scattered in pockets around the US pose any threat at all to American core values. The issue for me is still Islamophobia, not Islam, Islamophobes, not Muslims, being the greater threat to our "core values."


 I think that people coming into the US have to obey US laws. But they don't necessarily have to become Americans or adopt American values. What sort of "freedom" are we offering when we say "our way or the highway"?

I have left out the rest of your post, which seems to address the "how" part of the endeavor, which I've already stated is "above my pay grade", if you will.  Maybe if you could persuade me that my response is required, I can take a second look.  But I believe that is part of the nuanced discussion, to which I'm definitely amenable.

As for the quoted part:  I agree with your first statements here (I've argued the same thing over the last year or so and the value of this endeavor would be to clear up this Islamophobia).  However, I do disagree that importing people who harbor views that are antithetical to our core values of "freedom" is itself an affront to our values.  That is not to say that we're importing such people, but in theory, you surely cannot tell me that people who are fundamentally opposed to the foundations of nation (such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech) or certain cultural values that go to our core (women's rights, gay rights, minority rights  -- I realize there are some variances here, that may not be universally held within our country, but overall, I think it's valid), should be imported because that is an expression of "freedom".  It would neither be prudent, nor even in theory consistent with values we hold dear (i.e if we do not tolerate intolerance, doesn't mean that our intolerance is wrong).  This disagreement applies equally to the import of Islamophobes, as to terrorists, to people who denigrate women, to people who perpetrate violence on gays or whatever.  Now, maybe it's possible that you feel that importing such people will not endanger our core values, because you believe in the ability of our nation to impress our values into the newly immigrated population simply by the "greatness" (in quotes as it may mean different things to different people) of our nation.  If this is your argument, maybe it's something to ponder.  I would guess that that's not your argument since you've pointed out parts of the nation's history which will not attest to that greatness.  At the least, I have to wonder what parts of these "polls" in other fairly civilized nations of the West requires further evaluation (if we're discussing the greatness of America being able to overcome antithetical views).  

Agree or disagree, I'm glad we're  having a discussion on the merits of topics and areas which in our opinion needs further scrutiny, re-informing our own understanding etc. instead of lobbing conversation ending insults with little to no substance addressing the merits of the discussion.