Sen. John McCain diagnosed with brain cancer

[Bengalzona]

(07-25-2017, 04:09 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL, they didn't just "feel" that. Diem rigged a plebiscite (on CIA advice) to legitimate his rule, then flat out refused to hold the elections. The State of Vietnam, which Diem overthrew, was an extension of France, and so never signed the Geneva Accords in its own name. And Diem overthrew that government anyway. His government was the reconstituted Vietnamese military arm of the French colonial administration.

So here I have to disagree with my long-time forum buddy and dispute the legitimacy of Diem's government. Diem was arresting former Vietminh even before the coup. The CIA agreed that in a national referendum Ho would likely get 90%+ of the vote. So to save democracy in Vietnam the US had to destroy it.

When Diem came to power, people probably liked Bao Dai less, but by '59 that was unlikely. When I began looking into the Vietnam conflict (while we were still in Vietnam!) one of the things which struck me first and most was how different the South was from the North. There were large religious organizations like the Hoa Hao and Cao Dai which had their own armies of thousands, not to mention the Saigon mafia Binh Xuyen--in addition to the Buddhists. Suppressing those organizations created future Viet Cong. Like Trump, he drew family members into government, and went so far as to decree that the birthday of his brother, the archbishop of Vietnam, be celebrated in place of the Buddha's.  When a monk burned himself in protest, Diem's famous sister-in-law Madame Nhu (the dragon lady) sneeringly called it a barbecue.  That's how the upper class of landlords and civil servants viewed "the people." As civil unrest, riots, etc., increased, Diem (and the US military) systematically described all opposition as "Communist." 

I am guessing you remember or have read about all this. Here is a photo of the elegant Madam Nhu at target practice.

I don't know that we disagree so much, buddy. The facts you just presented are pretty much accurate. Ho Chi Mihn would have been elected in a national referendum and we didn't want that because he was communist. Hence, we tried to create a new country and set up Diem in the South.

My belief is that that may have worked if the puppet leader we set up in the South would have been willing and able to assemble a governing coalition from the varied and disparate interests in the South. It is pure conjecture, of course, because Diem was not willing. In fact, he did the exact opposite. He tore the separate groups in the South apart making it far easier for the Viet Cong to infiltrate, influence and ultimately win. The question of legitimacy of the South is really a non-question. They were legitimate in the U.S. eyes (which counts for something), but they were never really legitimate among the masses distrusted their own government.