So the big elephant in the room....

[Shake n Blake]

(09-14-2017, 09:06 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Me either; just trying to provide some discussion around the matter. I am not even a big ML fan, but thought it would be good to go over this. I like O'brien more than the others. I was just trying to provide some context around other coaches. it's quite clear Marv doesn't belong amongst the upper echelon of Head Coaches. He probably sits right below average (18-22, something like that). And yeah, get that = 1.5 more wins a year, but saying that Marv can coach in the NFL and win some games. Is he the best? F*** no!! lol Like I have stated before, his message has to be stale in the locker room. And worst yet, he's not very adaptive. This is probably what keeps him from being a much better coach. 

Yeah, he didn't "build" that first team. But I certainly seeing him having a hand in the getting of UDFA like Tez & Vinnie Rey. Tobin was hired 99, but has been in his current role since 02. In 02, we went 2-14. In 2003, of course, Marv was hired and the drafts and team started to turn it around. Is it a coincidence that since those two worked together that they started drafting better? Maybe they compliment each other really well? Tobin gives Marv his types of players and Marv molds them? I think it's almost certainly a coordinated effort.

I agree with much of what you're saying here, but I think it's unfair to pin that 2-14 record on Tobin. He was responsible for the influx of talent, but (a) that talent was still very young and raw in 2002 and (b) Lebeau was an awful head coach. Marvin was able to get much more out of that core, but (hate repeating myself) he didn't draft them. I think Marvin is a competent x's and o's guy. Better than we've seen since Wyche, but not elite. Essentially, I'd grade him like this:

x's and o's - B
clutch or toughness/mentality - F
Eye for talent - D+

You have to remember, Marvin was known for defense and we struggled for years there. His first 2 d coordinators were pretty awful. Until he found Burfict (I do tend to give him credit for that one, as he chased Tez pretty hard) he struggled to find LBs (a spot where I think he had the most input, considering his background and passion for that postion - the position he played and coached). 

And ultimately it's Tobin that is recommending pretty much every player we draft. That's his job. Marv isn't going around scouting 120+ schools year round. It's physically and mentally impossible for him to do that. 99% of the players Marv (or anyone else) looks at, were probably recommended first by Tobin. In that way, he most certainly has the biggest influence on who we take. Marvin probably has the biggest influence on which of Tobin's guys that they take, but they're probably all Tobin's recommendations. 

So yeah I agree that it's a "coordinated effort", but I think Tobin has by far the most influence on which players we take. And fwiw, I don't think the drafts suddenly got better when Marv was hired. That 2001 draft was probably the best in team history. Justin Smith, Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson and TJ Houshmandzadeh?