The US just recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital

[Dill]

(12-07-2017, 12:33 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I realize that Israeli homes are being built in lands that the Palestinians claim and that some people believe that that is permanent. But the Israelis have demonstrated previously under Begin (who many initially thought was just as hardline as Netanyahu) that they are willing to remove the homes and evict their people if an agreement is in place. In the 1980's, they evicted their own people from Gaza and the West Bank even at the point of a gun.

Thanks for the response, B-zona. Don't have much time to respond to people today, but I can offer a brief comment on the above.

Clearing Gaza meant that Israel could not effectively protect Israelis in Gaza, but it could effectively contain Gaza from without. The place is now the largest outdoor prison in the world.  Though many Palestinians were initially for disengagement, it was wholly unilateral, on Israeli terms and undertaken in what Sharon determined to be Israeli interests.

Also, there were barely 8,000 Israelis there. Imagine the blowback if Netanyahu tried the same thing on the West bank, where he would be dealing with almost 10 times that number, if you throw in East Jerusalem.  That would be civil war. But it would never come to that as no government could ever get Knesset support for the action unless the existence of Israel itself were at stake. So, I don't think the Israeli government will adopt any policy leading to Gaza-style "eviction" on the West Bank.

I should add that the Israeli settlements in Gaza were architecturally miniscule compared to the walled fortress complexes dominating the hills in the Greater Jerusalem area. Givat Yael alone has 13,500 housing units.

The central problem when speaking of "negotiations" is that such talk often assumes a power equivalence which simply isn't there.  Palestinians are effectively under the gun at all times. The West Bank is crisscrossed with check points and barriers turning what was formerly a 10 minute commute into a half day trip for workers and farmers. They cannot move in, around or out of the West Bank without Israeli permission. Their goods can be impounded and their houses bulldozed on the slightest pretext.

In theory Palestinians have much to gain, but in practice little to bargain with.  The map included in my post above illustrates this point eloquently enough. That's why I don't describe Palestinian negotiators as "entrenched" unless refusing to give up their last bit of land, security and dignity makes them somehow "hard line" unreasonable.    The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist; then Israel moved the goal posts, Netanyahu demanding they recognize the "Jewish character" of the state. They agreed to dividing the West Bank into areas in return for ceding control of Bethlehem, Nablus, Ramalla and Jericho to the Palestinian Authority control, then found themselves fenced away from their own properties and watched as new settlements fill the cleared areas.  Every concession seems to increase Israeli control. Luring Palestinians to the negotiating table and then making it plain they'll get less than they already have produces "walkaways" and claims Palestinians are intransigent and don't really want peace. Under these conditions, I don't have trouble understanding political fragmentation, as some want to fight back the only way they can. I also understand why asking them, not the Israelis, to "end the violence" produces such anger.

Israelis have to do nothing but what they are already doing and in a decade or two they will have the whole West Bank, blaming the Palestinians for refusing to negotiate.  Clinton, Bush Obama--all pressured Israel one way another to stop the illegal settlements. Now Trump has in effect opened the floodgates to further settlement. Some Americans, who will soon be watching demonstrations and perhaps violence on the ground there, will wonder if it is religion which makes them crazy or what. The rest of the world, as noted in my post above, will condemn both Israel and Trump.

Your point about Palestinian fragmentation deserves a more detailed response, but I have to run! Hopefully I'll get a few more words in tomorrow before the weekend curfew!