Pelosi, Schumer To Trump: "Let's Debate Border Funds in Private"

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-17-2018, 05:41 PM)Au165 Wrote: Trying to make their country better so they want to stay. Desperate people looking for a way out will always find a way, so throwing money at physical restraints is a futile effort.

 I actually feel like the better approach is partnering with the Mexican government to "go to war" with the cartels but for political reasons it will never happen. Between politicians being scared or on the payroll of the cartels no one really wants to do it. Then add in the fact that Mexicans will perceive us as an "occupying force" going to war with their people and it creates a bit of a nightmare. To be honest that is a more worthwhile "war" than any of the wars we have fought in Iraq or Afghanistan. When you look at how many people the cartels kill each year and the drugs flowing in it is more of a national security threat then anyone in the Middle East. 

Would love to partner up with the Mexican politicians, and tackle the Cartels, but we both know, that'd be a dead politician in less than a week. So no one is going to do that. If we send our troops in to deal with the Cartels, then it's just another War we have to pay for. How much have the other 2 wars cost us (Iraq and Afghanistan) $5 going on $6 Trillion?

(12-17-2018, 06:05 PM)hollodero Wrote: Still, not the same thing. Your Hungary example might be useful to advocate fencing, it's not that useful to advocate a wall.
Fences are way cheaper. And there's a point to be made that whoever can cross a fence also can cross a wall.



One of your own links pointed out that people don't think they are that awfully effective. But sure, it's hard to find numbers.

As for your questions how to keep migrants out. Every case is different, for sure. In Europe's case, it wasn't the Hungary fence, but the EU paying Turkey to keep many refugees. The decline in refugee numbers, mostly stemming fom that, is seen all over Europe, not just in fenced Hungary. The fence probably has little to do with that.
In case of Syria, of course, the most effective way to stop migrants is to end the war in Syria. With Mexico, helping them reach a better economic situation might be way more effective than a wall. With the 1 billion each year to maintain a wall, along with the maybe 20 billions to erect it (which is an awfully low estimate), many steps could be taken. Use the funds to build them up. Help them fight the cartels, and so on. Would be my initial suggestions to deal with that. Which makes the US a better neighbor, is the more civil way and would also avoid mass expropriations.
It might also help to deny illegals housing or jobs. Undocumented immigrants seem to have quite an easy time to get work and a place to stay (is my impression). More audits might help. Maybe, and I don't know, the US is also giving away visas too freely. Most illegal immigrants seem to just come with a visa and never leave again. A wall would do nothing about that.
Sure, surveilling the border is a necessity too. A wall seems like a bad way to do it. A wall can be climbed, so you would need to surveil it anyway. A wall also can be tunneled. The Israeli "anti-tunnel" technology costs around 800 million for 37 miles of wall. Which would mean 43 billions for the US border, which kind of seems a lot of additional costs.

Already explained the Cartel part above.

It's not that it's easy for them to get jobs/homes, you have heard of fake ids?

(12-17-2018, 06:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: First, I never said we were inhumane. I merely stated that the journey is not an easy one.

Second, the same terrain that makes the border crossing so treacherous is what makes a wall not only difficult to put in place, but also an unnecessary expense. The natural landscape acts as a barrier in much of the border lands and makes construction difficult and costly.


If only I was the one making a claim. You made a claim and used evidence that was tainted by racist origins and/or pulled out of thin air. You've made the declarative statement, not me. I have stated that the evidence I have read goes either way and that there is no way to be certain that undocumented immigrants are a benefit or a burden to our economy. You claim they are a burden.  You have the burden of proof.

Nope, I said in the beginning I thought the first report was high.

Then because if you guys trying to discredit the whole thing, I went and got REAL data to prove my point.
297k Anchor babies born per year average
https://cis.org/Report/Births-Legal-and-Illegal-Immigrants-US

In 2014, one in five births (791,000) in the United States was to an immigrant mother (legal or illegal). Our best estimate is that legal immigrants accounted for 12.4 percent (494,000) of all births, and illegal immigrants accounted for 7.5 percent (297,000).

Among the native-born, a large share of new mothers (42 percent) are either uninsured or on Medicaid. The rate is even higher among new mothers who are legal immigrants (47 percent) and higher still for new mothers who are in the United States illegally (67 percent). Almost all of these births are likely paid for by taxpayers.

We estimate that the cost to taxpayers for births to immigrants (legal and illegal) is roughly $5.3 billion — $2.4 billion of which is for illegal immigrants.

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Average cost of birth in US, $10,808

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/23/a-typical-american-birth-costs-as-much-as-delivering-a-royal-baby

States spent on average $12,903 per student (using nationwide average, but states like NY, CA, FL & TX costs are higher and number of illegals is also concentrated more in these states).

https://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/state_edwatch/2018/01/how_much_does_america_spend_on_its_schools.html

Cost of Anchor Babies to US Gov.
So again, 297k x 13 (number of years kids are currently in school) x $12,903 = $49.82 Billion annually.

Cost to birth these babies annually:
297k x .67 x 10,808 = $3.2 Billion annually.

These 2 costs alone is $53 Billion annually

Because the majority of them live in Poverty, the USC Children are eligible for:
CHIP, TANF, Medicaid, WIC, School Breakfast and Lunches etc

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/us-taxpayers-bear-weight-of-anchor-babies/
Welfare programs make up a significant share of federal and state spending — $670 billion at the federal level alone — and illegals who receive it pay little or no income tax to help defray those costs. So birth tourism is creating a net fiscal burden for the country.

CIS notes that the Department of Homeland Security undercounts the illegal immigrant population by at least 10% and that Census undercounts the number of people on welfare. That means that the actual welfare-use rate for illegals is much higher.
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So 10% of $670B is another $67B annually. These numbers are based on 10% even though it says the numbers are low..

so now $130 Billion annually.

https://itep.org/immigration/

A newly updated report released today provides data that helps dispute the erroneous idea espoused during President Trump’s address to Congress that undocumented immigrants are a drain to taxpayers. In fact,  like all others living and working in the United States, undocumented immigrants are taxpayers too and collectively contribute an estimated $11.74 billion to state and local coffers each year via a combination of sales and excise, personal income, and property taxes, according to Undocumented Immigrants’ State and Local Tax Contributions by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy.

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So $130B-$11.74B = $118.26B

Is it me or did I just do all of the work that the original report stated that you all claim is debunked using various resources???

I didn't even make it yet to how much it costs us annually to imprison the illegals yet.. of which 30% of federal prisoners are illegals.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/federal-prison-illegal-immigrants-taxpayers-pay-about-billion/

The U.S. Department of Justice released statistics today regarding aliens incarcerated in the Federal Bureau of Prisons. It found that as of March 25, there were 41,528 illegal immigrants in its prison system. The cost of this to the American taxpayer runs into the billions.

Which is to say that U.S. taxpayers are spending in the ballpark of $1.2 billion per year on the incarceration of illegal immigrants. The Federal Bureau of Prisons spends on average $29,226 per year on each inmate (this average takes into account all inmates, including those who need high security, medium security, and low security). Moreover, U.S. taxpayers are footing a bill of roughly $660 million per year — or $1.8 million per day — for inmates who have already received deportation orders.

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So add back $1.2B+$118.26B=$119.46B

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/dec/15/legalizing-dreamers-would-cost-26-billion-cbo/
Then there is DACA Kids. CBO Estimates costs to the US Tax Payer at $26B/Annually for the next decade

$26B + $119.46B = $145.46B

Then Court costs for fighting the Sanctuary Cities to release convicts.

NOW, with all of that said. I think it's safe to say it's really a problem.