The Democratic Party has moved too far to the left.

[*bfine32*]

(12-02-2019, 04:27 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, well, I had a part in that too. You're right. It's just quite tough for me from an outside perspective.
Referring to the holiday at hand, I see the battle of your party partisans as comparing two pumpkins. One might have its severe flaws in form or shape and it might subjectively be an ugly pumpkin for many, but it still pretty much looks like an ordinary pumpkin like they always looked. One could still make a pumpkin soup that is a western democracy out of it.
The other one though is rotten in its core, stinks to heaven, is covered in a musty yellow juice and just looks appalling.

And then folks still spend an equal amount of time to point at all the wrinkles on the ordinary pumpkin and try to make them a big deal, as if the alternative weren't that rotten thing or as if they were both equally bad because one is far from perfect too. Looks like they are still equal, you'd claim, both maybe bad, but definitely on par. It is getting tough to participate in that game, one you quite mastered.

On the other side - you wanted everyone to give him credit for visiting troops (which is just something presidents do, though most don't use that opportunity to slam opponents or make false promises), or for hosting the G7 summit, or for bringing peace to Korea or whatever quite undeserving reason. On the other hand, when I complained about him saying "some said not clapping for me is treason, and I say why not why not", you called me actually deranged for even considering he linked his opponents to traitors there. That is not an "objective lens" either and I have a hard time conceding such a lens to you.

Is the other pumpkin that rotten? To me it clearly and undoubtedly is. That is the problem. E.g. most of the 53 senators seemed to declare that they do and would not care about actual crimes, actual extortion schemes, they peddle conspiracies and lie to the public to protect their leader, run smear campaigns, berate folks in the starkest of terms, all to please a mad-king like figure. I know politicians, I never saw such a shameless bunch like this GOP leadership under Trump, a bunch that clearly would have exonerated Nixon. Something Trump's lawyers actually argue in court, that Nixon was handled wrong and that a president can do whatever he pleases, including actually shooting people, and nothing should be done about it. And not one conservative voice is concerned about that, not one effing voice, nope most happily hide behind that frivolous approach. All the democrats do wrong just is so pale in comparison.

You might see it as "obsessive", ok. But I clearly see a once proud and principled democracy possibly fall into an age of corruption, defilement and criminal schemes, definitely stopping to be a model and shining example, and I don't consider it exaggerated to be appalled by and scared of that. And also, shocked and perversely amused, sure.



OK, I get why you mention Maxine, truth is some will always be "too much" (to keep it unspecific) on every side, and she's too much for me also. But what exactly did Schiff do so awfully wrong? I thought he lead good hearings, made clear and comprehensible, fair points and the only complaint I'd have is that he said "we're better than this" when this is clearly not true.
And while I guess you might find legit points against Schiff (I'm sure you can) again how would they fare against every statement of Devin Nunes. I have no horse in the US politics' race, but when seeing those two I could not focus on the little things Schiff might have done wrong when seeing an elephant of wrong like those Nunes guys in comparison.

Yes you did have a huge part in turning this to another "Trump thread".

I can assume the Pumpkin analogy is steeped in Austrian tradition, because you've lost me on it. Let me just ask you a simple question: Do you think there are those in this very forum that may obsess too much on Trump's words and actions? 

Schiff went off the rails with his "interpretation" of the Trump conversation and his desire to hear only the witnesses he wanted. Fortunately the last part will not be an option if it goes to the judiciary and it shouldn't have been during the House hearing.