The Left Is Cancelling Dr Seuss

[CJD]

(03-05-2021, 01:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I have no problem with however it is people choose to live their lives, in whatever way that brings them as much happiness as possible (as long as it doesn't in some way afford me the same in return).

I'm not chiming in on these issues to be the guy that's drawing the line in the sand about sex and gender, and applying it evenly across the entire spectrum of debate.  To be honest, I don't really care all that much.  As long as "you're cool with me, I'm cool with you". 

Using someone's preferred pronouns takes as much effort as my "please's" and "thank you's".  No skin off my back.  I will also respect a person's wish to transition their apperance much in the same ways I would in more convential examples (being a goth, being a hippie, being into cosplay).  People can choose to act, dress, speak, and identify any way in which they wish, and I will allow them all an equal right to do so.

And you're right, there's tons of people who transition that I'm sure you can't even tell when walking past.  Again, why would I care?  That would appear to be just another women walking past (or man, depending on the example)

The only issue that I would I have is that I don't think it's abhorent for some people to still hold sex above gender, in their own personal views.  That's not to diminish much of what I just wrote above.  Even if they do use sex, and not gender, that doesn't mean trans individuals shouldn't me afforded the same respect and protections.

We may disagree here, but as an example, if someone is unwilling to accept that the "It's Ma'am" person from Gamestop is actually woman then I can in no way fault them for that.  That doesn't mean they should behave in any way to bring hurt onto this person, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to see that person, and recgonize that is clearly a man wearing woman's clothing.

Biden's recent cabinet pick is another example.  That person is clearly transgender.  That person is not a woman.  Socially she might identify as one, and people should respect that.  But I'm sorry, that is not a woman.  It's just not.

Beyond genitalia, there's naturally occuring hormones, bone structure, the ability to birth a child, menstruation, menopause, etc.  These things don't just disappear with a transition.  You can't fault people for personally feeling that these are things that make up a female, and defaulting to sex over gender.

Perhaps some of us will just have to disagree on some of this.  Or maybe there's something lost in the translation.  Either way, I appreciate the conversation.

I don't know that person's specific situation but, if I was a betting man, I'd say she was a woman who had transitioned late in life and most likely had just recently begun her transition. She was likely very self conscious about her appearance and was doing her best to project femininity, albeit to a limited extent because she probably lived the majority of her adult life (and almost certainly her puberty and sexual maturity) before transitioning. And, sure, she was acting pretty shitty in that video, but none of it had to do with her identity. She was being a "Karen" just like a cis woman could be, but people honed in on her trans identity because of, you guessed it, transphobia.

But I don't think that makes her any less of a woman than a person who identifies early in her life that she was a woman. For example, there's a show on TLC (I think, may be Bravo) called This is Jazz. It follows the life of a teenage transgender woman who, at a young age (before puberty) she realized that her gender did not match her biological sex. They used puberty blockers and all that early and she transitioned into what the vast majority of people would consider a beautiful young woman.

In the show she has a few friends who are also transgender women but a few of them did not realize this until after their puberty started. So they look more "manly" as a result.

That doesn't mean they are any less of a woman than Jazz though. They just had a slightly different journey to the same destination.

I don't know for a fact, but I imagine Biden's cabinet pick was in a similar situation to the latter, where she realized her identity change later in life. Especially since I believe she's a boomer, maybe she felt this way for a long time but society would not have accepted her as she was until much later in her life.

Why are we calling transgender women like Jazz "women" but transgender women like the latter case "not a woman?" 

As far as I can tell, the perspective you hold almost entirely boils down to how they LOOK, which is explicitly a gender defined classification, not a sex defined classification. Basically "that person is pretty, so she's a woman. That person is ugly, so she's not a real woman."

Imagine you ran into a woman who looked really "manly" and thought to yourself "that's CLEARLY a trans woman, and therefore I've decided she's not a woman" (as you did with Biden's cabinet pick). Then, somehow, you later learn that she was a biological woman, she...just looked manly for whatever reason. You can't deny that this is a possibility. 

So what differentiates that "manly" cis woman from a "manly" transgender woman, other than the stigma that transgender women carry because so many people, like Brad and Mickey, think they aren't "real women" and deserve to be treated as such? And how can you possibly make that determination on the fly, say in a bathroom or a locker room?

As far as the bone structure, hormones, ability to give birth etc, those are things that are associated with women, sure. But they aren't definitive. Like with Jazz, hormones can be changed and/or blocked as necessary and bone structure, while generally favors men, there are plenty of bulky women in existence. And ability to give birth, I mean shit, that would mean every woman who has had a hysterectomy is now no longer a woman!

So we could draw a line in the sand and say "this trans woman is too manly to be a woman, so she's pretending. But this trans woman caught it early and is pretty, so we can call her a woman and let her into the bathroom" 
ooooooooooooooooor 
we can just trust that people are smart enough to self identify properly and do what is best for them and what is best for their situation without threatening them with violence indirectly by claiming they are actually just men trying to see some vaginas and boobs in a locker room...

You know what I mean?