REDS SHOULD TRY TO TRADE JOEY VOTTO

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-07-2017, 09:46 AM)kevin Wrote: #1, Reds have to pay him 25 Mil a year through 2023. That is 150 Mil...add in this years 22 Mil and 2024 7 Mil....That is 179 Million Dollars Reds still have to pay him from age 33 now to age 40 in 2024. He becomes a free agent at age 41 in 2025.

#2. Start with THE NEW YORK YANKEES and work down on big money teams that can afford to agree to pay the 179 Million and get the Reds out from under this contract. The Yankees have bought big contract players before. They are again in the World Series hunt. They could use a Joey Votto.  In making money there is the Yankess and then everybody else. The Yankees are about winning it all more than any franchise in sports.

#3. If Reds Dick Williams means what he says. He says Reds are trading higher priced older players at the top of their game as they rebuild or reload.  Older players that won't get to the next window of opportunity for this team. Votto is 33, back to the top of his game after some off years. Is a 2017 All-Star.  Has the most expensive and longest contract in Reds history.

#4. Factor in Votto getting injured again. Injuries happen in baseball a lot any more. Factor in Votto getting older as he reaches 40 years old. Factor in a very possible decline in his hitting numbers from now to 2024.  I will tell you Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench, Frank Robinson, Ted Kluszewski, Ken Griffey Jr, Barry Larkin, Vada Pinson and even Babe Ruth declined in their skills and hitting ability as they got near 40.   Balls that use to be hits became ground outs for Pete. Balls that use to be homers became outfield outs for Tony and Griffey JR and Frank.  

# 5. Votto was injured and out a long time. Once he came back, he had no power. He had to become a singles hitter and try to get walks. His legs would not let him stride into the ball for power. OK, in 2017 he is finally back to the MVP form that got him the huge and long contract. Problem is last place teams don't usually get the MVP Award. That often goes to a player that helps a team get to Play-offs and World Series.  

# 6.  The old baseball saying, If I can finish in last place with you, I can finish in last place without you....As good a year as Votto is having, The Reds are in last place.  The money rich Yankees are in the World Series hunt but not where they need to be in talent. Votto would increase the Yankees chances greatly.  

# 7. New York can afford Votto's contract much more than Cincinnati.

# 8. I'm pretty sure Jack McKeon would agree. He always pointed to Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds and even Ken Griffey Jr and said fans love home runs, but their teams don't win the World Series. He said if he had remained manager of The Reds that he would not have wanted Ken Griffey Jr and his contract on the team. McKeon would probably be all for dumping a 179 Million Dollar Contract by a small market franchise so that the team doesn't have to trade good players every year just to pay Mr Votto.

# 9. The Reds won the World Series in 1990 with these players at first base....Todd Bensinger and a young Hal Morris. ...It shows you don't need a Votto contract to win The World Series.

# 10. Reds would be doing Votto a favor moving him to a contender and Reds would be doing themselves a favor if that contender can afford to pick up ALL of Votto's contract.  The Reds paying Phillips this year to play for Atlanta is just stupid. They should have found a team willing to pay his contract.

# 11.  Now what the Reds get in return on the trade, I do not know.  A team willing to pay Votto 179 Million Dollars and take all that off the Reds is a lot right there.  Maybe we could get draft picks from Yankees or young prospects. The key is getting a team to pick up the entire contract.  This will free up money as Reds rebuild or reload as Dick Williams says team is doing.

# 12. On the short term Mesoraco might be an option at first base. His injuries limit his catching as doctors said they would. Reds will be trying to dump the Mesoraco contract as he becomes a free agent after 2018.  The Reds have other players who could go to first base. Reds are trying to find ways to play Scooter Gennett.

#13. Fans won't like this Votto trade, but how much are Fans liking last place.  

# 14. Dick Williams says trading Chapman, Bruce, Frazier, Phillips, Cueto, Leake, Straily, and others is all a part of building for the next window of opportunity.  Everybody is in complete denial if they don't see Votto at age 33 and his huge contract don't fit into the plans of this new window of opportunity.  If The Reds do NOT have to pay this 179 Million Dollars, they can indeed reload with good young players. I know Pete Rose likes Votto but Pete is not all that great with money. The Votto contract is an anchor that will keep The Reds in or near last place until 2025.  With Votto back on his game and in The All-Star Game, now is the time to see if a NY YANKEES would pick up this contract, and the Reds won't have to wait until 2025 to see this huge contract gone.  The Reds would have money to spread it around more even and field a more competitive team.

It won't happen. You Fans want Votto even if it means last place.  Yes, he is playing good now, but he is too expensive for small market Cincinnati.  The Reds should have never had Griffey Jr as they floundered in last place with him. Big Huge contracts are no good for small market Reds.  Once the Reds got rid of Griffey, the team went from last to play-offs. I'm telling you the Votto contract is the same thing.  Reds stay in last as long as they pay most of the payroll to one player.

So as Reds look to trade free agents Cozart and Feldman this month of July, they should also be trying to trade Votto to the New York Yankees or any big money team willing to pick up and pay all of his 179 Million Dollar Contract.  Otherwise this team isn't really trying to trade older high priced players at the top of their game to build that next window of opportunity. The trade would need Votto and his agents approval, but I can't imagine him turning down going from a last place team to a first place team for the same money. Most players have welcomed a chance to be a NY Yankee. Votto didn't even have a good start to this year, but he had a great May and June.  Is 2 good months worth 179 Million Dollars ?...I say the time is right to TRADE HIM WHILE HE IS HOT AGAIN. Plus, as hot as he is, The Reds are in Last Place.  Paying most of the payroll to one player is a bad move. Injuries and old age could make Votto not a trade option in the future. Trading Votto at age 33 may be more possible than after age 35 at a guaranteed 25 Million A Year until age 40. ...and Votto has 24 homers so that is One Million Dollars Per Homer for the Last Place Reds so far in 2017. ...The Reds signed him for too much for too long. His stats will decline as he goes from 33 to 40 years old. You can pretty much count on that. No team will want him from 2020 to 2024 as Reds still have to pay him about 100 Million in his declining years.

Needs to be said first. Joey Votto has a full no trade clause and doesn't seem like he wants to leave. That said...


1. Tell me what the Reds could possibly spend that money on and get better production for it. There are 33 players making $20m+/yr on their contracts right now. Name me 32 players in MLB better than Joey Votto who aren't on their initial team control.

2. Votto is sure as hell not waiving his no trade for the NY reporters and news.

3. After some years off? Lol... he had 1 year off, due to injury, and even that off year he still had a 125 OPS+, meaning he was 25% better offensively than the average player that year. Even one legged Votto had 1.9 WAR in 62 games. (So in just over 1/3rd of a season, with 1/2 of his legs, he was basically a good average starter. (2.0 WAR)

4. Votto's hitting profile is reliant on a good eye and line drives. Both of those age extremely well. His hitting isn't reliant on his speed, or power, which are the two things that age more poorly.

5. "Once he came back, he had no power. He had to become a singles hitter and try to get walks."  This right here should have told everyone that you have no idea what you're talking about in this thread. In 2015 and 2016, when you say he had no power and was a singles hitter, Votto was 11th in the NL in ISO, which is a direct measurement of power, hitting the 7th most HR in the NL during that time span. Two of the people ahead of him played at mile high altitude. Really could probably just have only this in my reply to show how stupid this thread is.

6. It's easy to say that, until you go from a 75 win team to a 60 win team. They're both losing teams, but one is a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch.

7. I go back to there being 33 people making $20m+/yr right now. The Reds can afford Votto, and they would get absolutely zero better production if they spent that money on others.

8. Who the F cares about Jack McKeon? The dude went to the postseason ONCE in 16 years. He has a career .515 winning %.

9. Cool story, but the Reds had the 3rd best pitching staff ERA, and 1st in ERA+ in all of baseball that year. They clearly don't have that now, so they need the offense.

10. The Reds wanted to see if Peraza was the future at 2B. Phillips would not have been happy on the bench. Peraza hasn't been good, but at least now they know it and can plan accordingly. Not to mention if BP was still on the team, Scooter would not be.

11. Nobody trades draft picks in MLB. Trading Votto to just dump money is absolutely stupid. They would never be able to replace his production for the money they save.

12. Mesoraco can't play first. Just like Jay Bruce couldn't play first. Scooter has also never played first before. Defense aside (Joey Votto is currently ranked as the 2nd best defensive 1B in the NL by Fangraphs) The *AVERAGE* slash line of a NL 1B in 2017 is .270/.365/.516. That's a .881 OPS for an average one. Gennett's career OPS is .765, Mesoraco's is .726, Duvall's is .806. Even an above-average hitter like Duvall isn't good enough to be a good hitting 1B.

13. So to solve the last place issue, you're going to trade an MVP caliber player who will probably go into the HoF. Smart.

14. Votto at age 33 is looking at getting his second MVP trophy. Said before he can easily be productive for his contract because of what type of batter he is. You keep harping on his contract, but they DO have to pay it, unless Votto agrees to be traded. Also his contract really isn't an issue. The Reds wouldn't have a competitive team because $25m wouldn't get you anything better than Votto. $25m in 2017 (of people could get you.....

-Mike Leake + Wade Davis
-Brett Gardner + Matt Garza
-Jay Bruce + Denard Span
-Edinson Volquez + Jon Jay + Dee Gordon

$25m just doesn't get what it used to. You're living in the past, thinking Votto's contract is the devil. Meanwhile he's one the best players in baseball. Might at well go to Jungle Noise and start posting about how Dalton's contract is holding back the Bengals. Lol.. just wait until Harper gets like $40m/yr in like 2 years. You're going to have a heart attack.