Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(12-22-2023, 06:52 PM)samhain Wrote: Israel seems to have a FU card when it comes to murdering adversaries.  Responses are often expected to be disproportionate and without apology.  

Despite this, I favor Israel in this conflict.  I don't say that because I agree with their tactics or heavy handedness.  I say it because they are the only liberal nation in the region, and one of the historically most liberal in the world.  I want them to succeed, although they've definitely taken an unfortunate authoritarian turn of late (as many western nations have).

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I tend to agree with the bolded. 

In my view, Israel's press is more liberal (i.e., "open") than ours is--especially with regard to their own government/military misdeeds. If you want to track actual cases of the IDF using civilians as human shields, you go to the Israeli press; if you want to hear how Hamas puts its headquarters under hospitals, you go to the US press.

I admire a number of their human rights organizations as well though, as you note, the rightward, authoritarian turn is as unfortunate there as it is here or anywhere else. 

Liberal democracies, including our own, have not had a particularly liberal record in their encounter with non-Western societies, especially those they have colonized. Israel, e.g., was born in an "authoritarian turn" vis a vis the Palestinian population it violently dispossessed and whose remainder it now holds under military control. 

(12-22-2023, 06:52 PM)samhain Wrote: I regard fundamentalist Islam much the same as I do evangelical Christianity.  I dislike their culture gaining influence here or anywhere.  Liberals who support organizations like Hamas out of sympathy for the unfortunate victims of the war should take care to compartmentalize their reasoning..  Women, homosexuals, atheists, even believers of other persuasions would likely not fare well in most nations governed by Islamic authorities.  In many cases they would be in real physical danger by merely openly existing.  Most of those people, however, would be just fine in Tel Aviv.  

I would caution against reading the Israel-Palestine conflict as a "civilizational" one between a liberal west and a monolithic, fundamentalist Islam, especially if you dislike Nazis and other far rightists. That's really their bailiwick. 

Palestinian politics embraces a full spectrum, including progressive support for "women, homosexuals, atheists" etc.  The PLO is a secular organization and the Palestinian government is a parliamentary democracy--albeit under the the thumb of the Israel military. Netanyahu was insuring Qatari money reached Hamas precisely to weaken this "liberal" secular block of the PLO/PA and strengthen the Islamist Hamas. The civilizational divide you see between Israel and the Palestinians is actually a divide within both groups.

I'd also keep in mind that "women, homosexuals, atheists and believers of other persuasions" do not fare well under Israeli military occupation either, where all the dominated population is in real physical danger.

Sexual acts between men are legally forbidden in Gaza, but that is based on a statute from the military code of the British Mandate.

As far as LGBTQ "being fine in Tel Aviv," many progressives there don't feel fine because their safety and ease, at present, is predicated on denying millions their rights. Very difficult to defend that in terms of liberal values.  The Palestinian LGBTQ activist group Al Qaws' website has an interesting account of "pink washing" in Israeli tourist marketing and in its government propaganda.  http://www.alqaws.org/articles/Beyond-Propaganda-Pinkwashing-as-Colonial-Violence?category_id=0