06-24-2020, 01:49 PM
(06-24-2020, 04:46 AM)Dill Wrote: I have never used the IDF as a paragon of constraint. However could you get there when I make a point IDF soldiers and their command know full well they can hit people behind their initial targets? They use lethal weapons for non-lethal purposes. They are mentioned as evidence that your "aim-for-body-mass" mantra is simply not universal, and to introduce an external point of ROE comparison.
Yes, you did, at least in comparison to US LEO's. I explained, in detail, why aiming for something other than center mass is bad policy and, additionally, why aiming for the thigh (trying to hit the shin/calf is exponentially more difficult than the thigh, which is difficult on its own) is only slightly less lethal than aiming center mass.
Quote:You claim superior knowledge here, and I guess the descriptions of what happens when bullets strike extremities are supposed to establish that. But you really had no particular reason to believe that I, or the majority of people on this MB, don't already know about arteries and bone splinters etc. And your guess about the conditions under which IDF soldiers actually shoot civilians indicates a willingness to claim more than you really "know" and shape it to your thesis.
I'm surprised you're now going to double down on your claim leg wounds are only "slightly" less lethal, further asserting that I have offered nothing of substance to suggest that shots to the legs, which hold no vital organs and receive tourniquets easily, are rather less likely to be lethal than shots to the torso--body mass--which houses the heart, liver lungs, spine and some very large veins and arteries, none easily accessible to pressure bandages and tourniquets. I'd say "zero expertise" is required to understand where lethal wounds are more likely to occur.
Data should help us sort this out, so here's a paragraph from a 2018 study of in the Journal of the American Medical Association on the relation of lethality and caliber size, which also indicates lethality in relation to wound location.
The Association of Firearm Caliber With Likelihood of Death From Gunshot Injury in Criminal Assaults
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6324289/#zoi180063r3.
The distributions of wound locations differed in the expected way. For individuals with a single wound, 84 of 134 (62.7%) were peripheral (legs, arms, or shoulders) for nonfatal cases, compared with only 1 of 64 (1.6%) for fatal cases. For individuals with multiple wounds, the most serious wound was peripheral in 18 of 50 nonfatal shootings (36.0%) compared with 1 of 119 fatal shootings (0.8%). (The ranking used to determine seriousness was based only on location, with head and neck most serious; then chest, back, and abdomen; then arms, shoulders, and legs.
To emphasize--in a sample of 134 single-wound, non-fatal shootings, a rather large proportion (62.7%) were peripheral (arms, shoulders, legs). In 64 cases of fatal wounding with one shot, it appears only one was the result of peripheral wounding. So in this total sample of 198 single-wound shootings, only one was fatal AND peripheral. What should one conclude from the high rate of survival of peripheral wounds? Or about the "slightly less" lethality of leg shots? Could you argue that 1 is only "slightly" less than 84?
This is why the military of every nation is very concerned about armor protection for the head and body, much less so legs and arms, as wounds there are more generally treatable (even on the battlefield) and survivable.
Outstanding, thank you for providing a source, albeit extremely limited ins cope, to try and prove your point. However, I must again claim superior knowledge. Your study is almost exclusively on hand gun rounds. Literally the only rifle round in the study, a 7.62x39mm typically fired from an AK platform, caused a fatal wound. As your IDF buddies are all firing rifle rounds, likely 5.56mm NATO (btw a higher velocity round than 7.62x39 which will cause a larger stretch cavity) your study is useless in evaluating their tactics. Unless you want to use the only rifle round in the study, you know the one that caused a fatality. Appreciate the self own on your part.
