Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(03-03-2024, 08:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Let's say that everything you say is 100% fact (it isn't but let's say).  How does this change a single factual thing I stated about Hamas?  How does this refute anything about their actions, activities or history?  It doesn't, and you know it doesn't.  Which is why you always try and shift the conversation away from Hamas to what big meanies the IDF is.  Refute a single thing I said about Hamas, just try.

So the question raised by Dino's article is whether Israel, not Hamas, committed another unwarranted massacre.  

You are asking me, and everyone, to consider the matter settled if Hamas has committed war crimes ("Refute that, just try!!"), and to NOT consider whether Israel has actually done what it appears to have done. Which is why you are trying to shift the conversation away from the IDF.

(03-03-2024, 08:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, when the enemy hides behind civilians and hostages there will be casualties.  Answer this question, if Hamas did not hide among civilians, and operate out of civilian areas, would that lessen the civilian casualties in this conflict?
Sure.  Hamas embeds themselves within civilian mob, as per their usual MO.  Hamas fires on IDF from within civilian mob, as per their usual MO.  IDF returns fire, even while attempting to target only combatants and some civilians are killed.  Terrorist sympathizers like yourself then get to blame the IDF for civilian deaths deliberately caused by Hamas.  You're not talking to "struggle of the month" college students here.  You're not talking to people who can be guilted into sympathizing with some of the most monstrous human beings on the planet.  You're talking to people with a clear understanding of the tactics of the dogs of Hamas and aren't afraid to call them out.  Save your equivocating for terrorists for your lefty friends desperate to atone for the sin of being born.

This is just further defense of pre-judgment as your operating standard--i.e., know the conclusions in advance. Our difference is about that standard, whether the urge to pre-judge nullifies the obligation to consider evidence first, and to make no inferences beyond what the evidence infers. As far as being asked to "sympathize" with "some of the most monstrous human beings on earth--you're just making that up for drama, but I note your courage in "calling out" a group which virtually everyone vilifies, regardless of the risk to your person. 

And I'm not talking to someone with "a clear understanding of the tactics of the dogs of Hamas." 

You don't appear to know much about the history of how human shields have been used in Arab-Israeli conflict, or charges of such have been used in the media side of the conflict, though I have given you some insight on this before.

The usual charge against Hamas is that, in crowded Gaza, it stores rockets in schools or hospitals and fires them from nearby. Israel must therefore stop to calculate "proportion" then, giving Hams time to continue fighting, or to accuse Israel of massacring civilians. So "lawfare." I can only think of two reports outside of IDF that I'd consider confirmation, one by the EU and the other by NATO. Nevermind that Israel also sites many of its military headquarters and the like in densely populated areas, and claims civilians are attacked if Hamas rockets them etc.

Another complication in this long-going conflict is that many, including Israelis and Americans, volunteer to become human shields for Palestinian families to protect them from IDF maiming and killing of civilians. Some Palestinians have believed they can protect their homes if they stand on rooftops, hoping the Israelis won't bomb them anyway. The IDF then claims they were ordered to by Hamas.

I wouldn't be surprised if the IDF claimed, as you speculate, that Hamas fired from within a civilian "mob." But to date I'm aware of no such documented charges against Hamas. Somehow you jumped beyond what international investigations have shown to infer such "as per their usual MO."  

The primary charge against Israel, regarding the use of human shields, is that it selects individual civilians, including children and chains them to the front of vehicles or forces them to test for booby traps in buildings or holds them in front of soldiers walking into combat as they fire at whomever. 

No dearth of confirming evidence here, from Israel's own legal system to international organizations to groups of ex-Israeli soldiers like "Breaking the Silence."
A few data points:

2005 Israel-Gaza: IDF used Palestinians as human shields 1,200 occasions in last five years, say Israeli defence officials
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html

When an Israeli high court declared the use of human shields illegal, the "professional military of a democratic nation" appealed the ruling, and began the practice of "requesting" help from civilians.  https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154142,00.html

2007 And the practice continued illegally.
https://www.denverpost.com/2007/04/11/israelis-use-palestinian-as-human-shield/

2009 Page 48-50 of this Amnesty International report on Operation Cast lead details how IDF soldiers commandeered
family homes as operational sites and kept the families with them.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/

Israeli soldiers of the group "Breaking the Silence" expose the "neighbor procedure" and much else. Their commanders deny it.  
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8151611.stm

2013 Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620/

And on and on and on. When people in the region hear "human shield," they don't immediately think of Hamas--
2017 https://www.btselem.org/harrasment/20170403_night_raids_in_nablus_area
2021 https://www.btselem.org/human_shields/20220619_border_police_officers_use_members_of_jenin_family_as_human_shields
2024 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/31/west-bank-human-shield-describes-100-breathless-minutes-held-by-israel

It's like the facts of the case are of little interest to you, and instead you busy yourself imagining/constructing motivations/connections 
you cannot possibly validate to fill in the vacuum.  "Sin" lol.