03-04-2024, 11:22 PM
(03-04-2024, 10:41 PM)Dill Wrote: So the question raised by Dino's article is whether Israel committed another unwarranted massacre, a war crime.
Indeed. As are all articles on this conflict raised by you and Dino. Never a single thing about terrorist Hamas, Hezbollah, or their enables in Qatar and Iran. It makes one wonder why.
Quote:You are asking me, and everyone, to consider the matter settled if Hamas has committed war crimes ("Refute that, just try!!"), and to NOT consider whether Israel has actually done what it appears to have done. Which is why you are trying to shift the conversation away from the IDF.
Actually, no. Hamas committing war crimes is a given, they literally lived streamed it and were quite proud of it. The question is why, 1. you seem to never comment on the actions of Hamas or other Islamic bad actors and, 2. why you are always trying to shift the conversation towards the IDF (double edged swords are a *****, eh?)
Quote:This is just further defense of pre-judgment as your operating standard--i.e., know the conclusions in advance. Our difference is about that standard, whether the urge to pre-judge nullifies the obligation to consider evidence first, and to make no inferences beyond what the evidence infers. As far as being asked to "sympathize" with "some of the most monstrous human beings on earth--you're just making that up for drama, but I note your courage in "calling out" a group which virtually everyone vilifies, regardless of the risk to your person.
Well, you certainly don't vilify them. Nor does Dino. Nor does a rather sizeable percentage of your fellow leftists, including prominent members of Congress. That being established, I'm totally fine with discussing the IDF and ways they could handle this conflict more humanely. What I am not fine with is your equating their actions as equally monstrous to those of Hamas (usually by refusing to acknowledge that Hamas is even doing anything wrong) and your laser focus on only the actions of the IDF as causing civilian casualties, again ignoring the rather prominent role of the dogs in Hamas.
Quote:And I'm not talking to someone with "a clear understanding of the tactics of the dogs of Hamas."
Oh, but you are. You most certainly are. At the very least I can actually acknowledge them, something you appear to be incapable of doing.
Quote:You don't appear to know much about the history of how human shields have been used in Arab-Israeli conflict, or charges of such have been used in the media side of the conflict, though I have given you some insight on this before.
We'll get to your "examples" soon. For the moment I would simply state that excusing the excesses of one group by focusing on those of the other is exactly what you're trying (and failing) to accuse me of doing here. An interesting strategy to admit you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing.
Quote:The usual charge against Hamas is that, in crowded Gaza, it stores rockets in schools or hospitals and fires them from nearby. Israel must therefore stop to calculate "proportion" then, giving Hams time to continue fighting, or to accuse Israel of massacring civilians. So "lawfare." I can only think of two reports outside of IDF that I'd consider confirmation, one by the EU and the other by NATO.
Well, a very quick search allowed me to add the Washington Post to that list.
https://archive.is/YoJSE
Of course, your assertion completely ignores basic physics, as rocket telemetry clearly shows where Hamas rockets are fired from.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-it-fired-rockets-from-civilian-areas/380149/
https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-middle-east-hamas-152644963f4249a7a21154446649910a
Quote:Nevermind that Israel also sites many of its military headquarters and the like in densely populated areas, and claims civilians are attacked if Hamas rockets them etc.
Knowledge fail. Hamas's rockets are dumb fire weapons. They are inaccurate and unguided. The also land among their own populace. Saying Hamas is targeting Israeli military assets in a civilian region is like me saying I targeted a few grenades at a single guy in a running crowd.
Quote:Another complication in this long-going conflict is that many, including Israelis and Americans, volunteer to become human shields for Palestinian families to protect them from IDF maiming and killing of civilians.
Anyone doing that is a moron, regardless of nationality. Aiding a terrorist organization is stupid at best, criminal at worst.
Quote:Some Palestinians have believed they can protect their homes if they stand on rooftops, hoping the Israelis won't bomb them anyway. The IDF then claims they were ordered to by Hamas.
Have they tried not having Hamas in their homes? Just kidding, I know they can't because Hamas would kill them if they resisted. These are the people you're defending here.
Quote:I wouldn't be surprised if the IDF claimed, as you speculate, that Hamas fired from within a civilian "mob." But to date I'm aware of no such documented charges against Hamas. Somehow you jumped beyond what international investigations have shown to infer such "as per their usual MO."
What constitutes a "threat" to an armed military?
Quote:The primary charge against Israel, regarding the use of human shields, is that it selects individual civilians, including children and chains them to the front of vehicles or forces them to test for booby traps in buildings or holds them in front of soldiers walking into combat as they fire at whomever.
No dearth of confirming evidence here, from Israel's own legal system to international organizations to groups of ex-Israeli soldiers like "Breaking the Silence."
A few data points:
2005 Israel-Gaza: IDF used Palestinians as human shields 1,200 occasions in last five years, say Israeli defence officials
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html
When an Israeli high court declared the use of human shields illegal, the "professional military of a democratic nation" appealed the ruling, and began the practice of "requesting" help from civilians. https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3154142,00.html
If this continues then it is wrong and must stop. I must, however, ask what this has to do with the ongoing use of this tactic by Hamas to this very day. This, once again, reeks of you trying to shift attention from Hamas to the IDF, an attempt to equate their actions as equally bad. Yet, I've never seen such you put even a fraction of this type of effort into a post condemning the actions of Hamas. Why is that?
Quote:2007 And the practice continued illegally.
https://www.denverpost.com/2007/04/11/israelis-use-palestinian-as-human-shield/
Anecdotal accounts with no evidence to back them.
Quote:2009 Page 48-50 of this Amnesty International report on Operation Cast lead details how IDF soldiers commandeered
family homes as operational sites and kept the families with them.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/
Israeli soldiers of the group "Breaking the Silence" expose the "neighbor procedure" and much else. Their commanders deny it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8151611.stm
More anecdotal evidence. Also fifteen years old.
Quote:2013 Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620/
First off, nowhere in this article is the word torture used, or torture described. Also, more anecdotal evidence.
Quote:And on and on and on. When people in the region hear "human shield," they don't immediately think of Hamas--
2017 https://www.btselem.org/harrasment/20170403_night_raids_in_nablus_area
2021 https://www.btselem.org/human_shields/20220619_border_police_officers_use_members_of_jenin_family_as_human_shields
2024 https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/1/31/west-bank-human-shield-describes-100-breathless-minutes-held-by-israel
Well, we certainly do here in the US.
Quote:It's like the facts of the case are of little interest to you, and instead you busy yourself imagining/constructing motivations/connections
you cannot possibly validate to fill in the vacuum. "Sin" lol.
What facts? You provided anecdotal evidence with close to zero facts. The only links you provided with any verifiable facts were from the 00's.
So, I've read your response in detail. I would like to now challenge you to do a similar post on the war crimes of Hamas. I await the fifty alerts before finally receiving a reply you don't delete.
