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(04-30-2024, 08:09 PM)Dill Wrote: There were "communists" among the protestors. By your logic, why wouldn't that make them "pro-communist,"
if a scattered Hamas supporters can make an anti-Gaza protest "pro-Hamas"? Are you supporting Communism if
you support civil rights now?
Were the communists welcomed and given free reign to express their position? One could well draw the conclusion that anything that was perceived as weakening the US would be a prime target for communist/Soviet support. After all, unlike them we actually allowed protest, albeit to different degrees depending on the location at that time.
Quote:NOW most right wingers (maybe not all?) can acknowledge that MLK was "no Soviet." Sure
I haven't encountered anyone, right of left leaning, who considers MLK a Soviet. Maybe you're being a bit prejudiced here?
Quote:Yes there are, and their comments were part of the genocide case that South Africa has brought to the ICJ.
Constantly claiming "no comparison" results in censoring your own intake of information,
while heightening your output of disinformation.
It's Clear to Everyone Gazans Must Be Destroyed, Israeli Lawmaker Says
MK from Netanyahu party says widespread calls to 'destroy' the citizens of the Gaza Strip proves that the right-wing was correct 'all along'
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-03/ty-article/its-clear-to-everyone-gazans-must-be-destroyed-israeli-lawmaker-says/0000018c-ce57-ddba-abad-cef736e40000
Israeli calls for Gaza’s ethnic cleansing are only getting louder
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/05/wv-israel-hamas/
'Erase Gaza': How genocidal rhetoric became normalised in Israel
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/erase-gaza-how-genocidal-rhetoric-normalised-israel
‘Wipe Gaza off the face of the earth’: The statements made by Israeli politicians on which South Africa supports its genocide case
https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html
Certainly some calls for ethnic cleansing, which is separate from genocide. The nuclear weapon comment was understandably walked back. I certainly wouldn't support ethnic cleansing, much as most GOP voters wouldn't support Boebert or Dem voters Cori Bush. The problem for you is the Hamas mission statement, their entire stated purpose for existing, is the eradication of Israel and the murder of all Jews in the Middle East. I think you're going to have to try harder to find a comparable statement from Israel, even among those as extreme as the ones provided. Sadly for you, and the Palestinian people, Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organization. Electing them to lead appears to have been a poor choice. And yes, I completely sympathize with those who would oppose Hamas, much as I would with Germans who opposed the Nazis. Hopefully the Palestinians will be able to overthrow their genocidal leaders before it's too late. Maybe if people like you, and the college protestors, assisted them they'd have a greater chance of success?
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(04-30-2024, 07:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: I guess a lot depends on where you are and how they want to go about it.
Allegedly there was a very peaceful protest at ASU
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Cool, but if you didn't get a permit to protest, or disperse after being ordered to do so it's still not kosher.
Quote:But the police sent in frat members to tear stuff up and throw it away as the arrested people for protesting peacefully.
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Yes, the police enlisted "frat boys". Hey Alpha Beta guys, wanna help us clear out some nerds? An assembly can be peaceful and still unlawful. Once you are ordered to disperse you must do so or face legal consequences.
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(04-30-2024, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You continually trying to equate these pro-Hamas protests to the civil rights or anti-apartheid movement reeks of desperation. A slight difference, neither of those protests favored the side of admitted pro-genocide, gang rapist, murdering kidnappers of infants and the elderly.
This is like saying the civil rights protests were "pro-Communist" protests,
as people did at the time.
No, it's not.
Were the communists welcomed and given free reign to express their position? One could well draw the conclusion that anything that was perceived as weakening the US would be a prime target for communist/Soviet support. After all, unlike them we actually allowed protest, albeit to different degrees depending on the location at that time.
So my point was that there were "Communists" among civil rights protests. But that didn't make them "pro-Communist" protests,
because segregation/injustice was the REAL CAUSE.
Just as a Hamas supporter among anti war protestors at Columbia would not make the protests "pro-Hamas,"
because the REAL CAUSE of the protests would be the Gaza War and the occupation.
Your response is not refutation but repetition--"the protests are pro Hamas." As if the protests would be happening
whether there was a Gaza war or not, because lots of American students just like Hamas.
On a side note, the guy who organized the famous march on Washington in 1963 was a Communist. So yes, free reign--
until the FBI and DOJ came down on civil rights leaders and demanded they distance themselves from the Commies.
LOL you are definitely not a Leftist.
Rather than granting my point, you just offer a couple statements as to why it might be "understandable" to target civil rights leaders.
And you say "We actually allowed protest" at a time when, in fact, protests were not being allowed and protest
leaders were threatened, not protected, by police and FBI.
(04-30-2024, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:NOW most right wingers (maybe not all?) can acknowledge that MLK was "no Soviet." Sure
I haven't encountered anyone, right of left leaning, who considers MLK a Soviet. Maybe you're being a bit prejudiced here?
Have you encountered, in your voluminous reading of US Civil Rights history, anyone who considered King a Communist? The FBI team that surveilled him might be a good place to start. The Bureau's Domestic Intel. head, William Sullivan, shared these thoughts.
“We must mark [King] now...as the most dangerous Negro of the future of this Nation from the standpoint of communism, the Negro and National security,” https://www.history.com/news/martin-luther-king-jr-fbi-j-edgar-hoover-communism
The right was divided on this matter. Some "knew" that he was a communist agent of Moscow, others thought merely a tool. But none doubted he was part of the Communist "threat." Tricky Communists were stirring up anger about racism, dividing otherwise happy Americans. They attacked the ideology of white supremacy, but the FBI could see right through that tactic. OUTSIDE AGITATORS where creating racial unrest--not actual racism.
No surprise during a time when the head of the John Birch Society could call Eisenhower a "dedicated, conscious agent of the Communist conspiracy." That was back when the conspiratorial far right was fringe, not mainstream.
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(04-30-2024, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: There are plenty of Israeli politicians who are "pro-genocide,"
but I've so far resisted claiming that make pro-Israel protestors pro-genocide.
No, there aren't
............................................................................................................................................
Certainly some calls for ethnic cleansing, which is separate from genocide. The nuclear weapon comment was understandably walked back. I certainly wouldn't support ethnic cleansing, much as most GOP voters wouldn't support Boebert or Dem voters Cori Bush. The problem for you is the Hamas mission statement, their entire stated purpose for existing, is the eradication of Israel and the murder of all Jews in the Middle East. I think you're going to have to try harder to find a comparable statement from Israel, even among those as extreme as the ones provided.
My task was to establish that there are plenty of Israeli politicians who are pro-genocide--mission accomplished.
To which I'd add, those in question were pro-genocide long before Oct. 7. Calls for killing all Gazans or Palestinians and destroying their culture
are certainly "comparable" to anything Hamas has said. Why would you say otherwise? And Israelis get to walk shit back, but not Hamas?
Did you read the links I posted? Certainly some calls for ethnic cleansing. But also the DEPUTY SPEAKER of the Knesset publicly called for total eradication of all Gazans. " Wipe them off the face of the earth . . . . There are no innocents." That's a bit more than ethnic cleansing.
When he heard that 100,000 civilians were still in northern Gaza, he said he had no mercy for them:"We need to eliminate them."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/ahead-of-hague-hearing-likud-mk-doubles-down-on-call-to-burn-gaza/
Maybe better to just go to the data base at the Law for Palestine website and peruse the HUNDREDS of examples there, translated from Hebrew to English. Some of the material has been taken down, like youtube videos of IDF soldiers abusing detainees. But de-humanizing calls for killing all the "animals," not just "Hamas dogs," are frequent. https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Also, the problem for you is that there aren't just "calls" for ethnic cleansing. That has already occurred, starting in November 1947, and continuing to today as Palestinians are still incrementally driven from homes and business ins East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
Netanyahu's Finance Minister, Bezalel Smotrich speaks for many on the Israeli right when he says the Palestinians are "not a people."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-minister-says-no-such-thing-palestinian-people-2023-03-20/
You wouldn't support ethnic cleansing. Smotrich might have a way around that and genocide. In 2017, he proposed a kind of Joshua solution, in which Palestinians are given three choices: "to leave the country; to live in Israel with the status of 'resident alien,' because, as Smotrich made sure to note, 'according to Jewish law there must always be some inferiority,' or to resist, 'and then the Israel Defense Forces will know what to do.'" Is it genocide if you offer a choice?
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-05-16/ty-article/.premium/why-religious-zionism-is-growing-darker/0000017f-e13a-d804-ad7f-f1faf5f90000
Efforts to erase markers of Palestinian identity have long been part of Israeli policy, bulldozing mosques, and renaming villages and landmarks. The destruction of cultural heritage is an aspect of genocide. That has intensified during the Gaza war. https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1655264
https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/20/middleeast/israel-gaza-cemeteries-desecrated-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html
This does look like an attempt to "destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, on the part of many right wing Israeli politicians. But you are still having difficulty connecting this to US civil rights protests. College students think Palestinians are oppressed only because Israel has "more power""
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-prevention-and-punishment-crime-genocide
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
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(Yesterday, 11:12 PM)Dill Wrote: My task was to establish that there are plenty of Israeli politicians who are pro-genocide--mission accomplished.
![[Image: Square_Mission_Accomplished_George_W._Bu..._House.png]](https://www.golocalprov.com/cache/images/remote/https_s3.amazonaws.com/media.golocalprov.com/Square_Mission_Accomplished_George_W._Bush_Iraq_PHOTO_White_House.png)
I could, if I wanted to be really bored, respond to all of this tripe. But I found one particularly interesting example in your "law4palestine" list of "calls for genocide".
5 17/11/2023 Binyamin Netanyahu Prime Minister genocidal intent/civilian harm/collective punishment "It is necessary to make cultural changes in Gaza such as in Japan and Germany following WWII"
Anyone think changing the culture of Germany or Japan post WW2 was a call for genocide of those people? Last I looked both groups appear to still be around and going strong. Also, last I looked a cultural change was absolutely necessary for both, and to their current benefit.
You're stuck in your "glory days" protesting a unpopular war and you've latched onto this current protest as a way to relive those days and equate the current struggle to your youth. Your vehement denial of Vietnam protestors spitting on veterans makes a lot more sense now, hits too close to home. Sorry, dude this isn't the same thing, the current kids are not you with slightly better grooming and less patchouli oil. You're advocating for literally one of the most evil groups on the planet Earth, and you desperately want to be perceived as being right. You're not, and an increasingly greater majority sees that. No amount of ham fisted attempts at mitigating the actions of terrorists will change that.
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