Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Belsnickel]

To provide a place for the collection of all sorts of new related to the current conflict in Gaza and to prevent further derailing of a thread intended to discuss atrocities committed by Hamas, here is a superthread for these conversations.

Here are some of the latest news items on the conflict:

Israel keeps pounding Gaza, Houthis vow more Red Sea attacks

High civilian toll in Gaza is cost of crushing Hamas, Israeli military officials say

Qatar, Israel hostage talks 'positive' but deal not imminent -source

US envoys work for a new hostage release deal and a scale-down of the Israel-Hamas war

UN Security Council in intense negotiations on Gaza humanitarian resolution, trying to avoid US veto

Israeli airstrikes kill dozens across central and southern Gaza

Why Hezbollah and Israel haven't plunged into all-out war

Pressure mounts to scale back war as Gaza death toll nears 20,000

[GMDino]

I think, personally, it is possible to condemn the events of October and still see the Palestinian citizens who are being slaughtered simply for revenge.

I think Israel is more than capable of responding to the attacks with more precision than it has and Netanyahu is using this situation, that he helped enable, to justify cleaning on the Gaza strip completely.

That's why they are using the "dumb bombs" and telling people to leave the area and then bombing the area they go to.

The citizens there, in the end, will have less freedom and Israel will rule them with an iron hand when all is said and done.

Again, just my opinion.

[HarleyDog]

(12-20-2023, 10:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think, personally, it is possible to condemn the events of October and still see the Palestinian citizens who are being slaughtered simply for revenge.

I think Israel is more than capable of responding to the attacks with more precision than it has and Netanyahu is using this situation, that he helped enable, to justify cleaning on the Gaza strip completely.

That's why they are using the "dumb bombs" and telling people to leave the area and then bombing the area they go to.

The citizens there, in the end, will have less freedom and Israel will rule them with an iron hand when all is said and done.

Again, just my opinion.

I don't see much of an alternative. When the enemy buries themselves within innocent civilians and yet attacks you, I don't see how they can do anything precisely. Especially when they wear civilian clothes. I think we all know what their goal is by doing this, so who's really to blame? They create operations under hospitals for God's sake. There's been a lot of talk about flooding the tunnels and I think that's a good idea. If they are worried about killing innocent hostages that way, it's not much different than killing innocent victims with bombs. 

[GMDino]

(12-20-2023, 10:21 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't see much of an alternative. When the enemy buries themselves within innocent civilians and yet attacks you, I don't see how they can do anything precisely. Especially when they wear civilian clothes. I think we all know what their goal is by doing this, so who's really to blame? They create operations under hospitals for God's sake. There's been a lot of talk about flooding the tunnels and I think that's a good idea. If they are worried about killing innocent hostages that way, it's not much different than killing innocent victims with bombs. 

They killed three hostages who tried to surrender to them.

That leads me to believe they won't try to save anyone if they think they can clear the strip.  Innocent citizen or not.

And I think that is coming from the top and was the plan for a long time.

[Interceptor]

(12-20-2023, 10:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think, personally, it is possible to condemn the events of October and still see the Palestinian citizens who are being slaughtered simply for revenge.

I think Israel is more than capable of responding to the attacks with more precision than it has and Netanyahu is using this situation, that he helped enable, to justify cleaning on the Gaza strip completely.

That's why they are using the "dumb bombs" and telling people to leave the area and then bombing the area they go to.

The citizens there, in the end, will have less freedom and Israel will rule them with an iron hand when all is said and done.

Again, just my opinion.

The use of "dumb bombs" sounds like an economic decision.

https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza

[GMDino]

(12-20-2023, 10:29 AM)Interceptor Wrote: The use of "dumb bombs" sounds like an economic decision.

https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza

I don't have an account and can't read the article but saving money might be part of the decision if that is what they say.  I just feel, based on everything I've seen since October that it is also a conscious decision to do as much damage as possible no matter who is killed.

And let me add that is why I am so against war, and any war really.  It is the innocent people who end up paying for the leader's choices.

[Interceptor]

I am against war as well. But it doesn't "just happen".


Excerpt:

A report published last year by Operation Inherent Resolve, the American-led coalition against Islamic State (is), which has been bombing Iraq and Syria for almost a decade, made the same argument in explaining why Iraq’s air force was using dumb bombs: “properly employing unguided bombs is cheaper than using bombs with costly guidance kits, and can achieve the same effect.” In that campaign, America occasionally dropped unguided bombs ostensibly to crater roads, to constrain the jihadists’ movements, but in practice to raise the morale of Iraqi soldiers who were cheered by evidence of air support, says Stacie Pettyjohn of the cnas think-tank in Washington.

[GMDino]

(12-20-2023, 10:38 AM)Interceptor Wrote: I am against war as well. But it doesn't "just happen".


Excerpt:

A report published last year by Operation Inherent Resolve, the American-led coalition against Islamic State (is), which has been bombing Iraq and Syria for almost a decade, made the same argument in explaining why Iraq’s air force was using dumb bombs: “properly employing unguided bombs is cheaper than using bombs with costly guidance kits, and can achieve the same effect.” In that campaign, America occasionally dropped unguided bombs ostensibly to crater roads, to constrain the jihadists’ movements, but in practice to raise the morale of Iraqi soldiers who were cheered by evidence of air support, says Stacie Pettyjohn of the cnas think-tank in Washington.

Listen if they can't afford the war maybe they shouldn't be in the war. 

Nonetheless I will stand by it doing more to hurt support of Israel than to help it.

[Belsnickel]

(12-20-2023, 10:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think, personally, it is possible to condemn the events of October and still see the Palestinian citizens who are being slaughtered simply for revenge.

I think Israel is more than capable of responding to the attacks with more precision than it has and Netanyahu is using this situation, that he helped enable, to justify cleaning on the Gaza strip completely.

That's why they are using the "dumb bombs" and telling people to leave the area and then bombing the area they go to.

The citizens there, in the end, will have less freedom and Israel will rule them with an iron hand when all is said and done.

Again, just my opinion.

I think my issue is that Israel has killed far more innocent Palestinians, hell, more children alone, than Hamas has killed or kidnapped Israelis. At what point do we stop thinking of Israel as defending themselves and consider them to be the "bad guys" in this scenario? This is ignoring all of the other aspects of it that complicate the scenario, just the casualties alone show how indiscriminate Israel has been in this war.

[GMDino]

(12-20-2023, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think my issue is that Israel has killed far more innocent Palestinians, hell, more children alone, than Hamas has killed or kidnapped Israelis. At what point do we stop thinking of Israel as defending themselves and consider them to be the "bad guys" in this scenario? This is ignoring all of the other aspects of it that complicate the scenario, just the casualties alone show how indiscriminate Israel has been in this war.

Agreed.

There is "defending yourself" and there is "revenge" in my book.

And, again, I think this was the plan all along.  Wait for a serious attack and then unleash everything to wipe out the strip as it was before the attack.

That's not defending anything Hamas did, does or will do...it's concern for the citizens.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-20-2023, 12:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think my issue is that Israel has killed far more innocent Palestinians, hell, more children alone, than Hamas has killed or kidnapped Israelis. At what point do we stop thinking of Israel as defending themselves and consider them to be the "bad guys" in this scenario? This is ignoring all of the other aspects of it that complicate the scenario, just the casualties alone show how indiscriminate Israel has been in this war.

I actually think this way of thinking about is far more in line with revenge than what Israel is actually doing.  This isn't a case of you kill 1,200, I kill 1,200.  That's the kind of eye for an eye thinking your post would indicate you do not approve of.  Hamas has publicly stated they will continue to engage in attacks like 10/7 until Israel no longer exists.  Hence, Israel is left with two options; eliminate Hamas as an effective actor in the region or 2. get your "revenge" (proportionate casualties) and wait for the next brutal attack by Hamas.

Civilian casualties are high because Hamas wants them to be.  Their fighters dress in civilian clothing.  Their munition stores and rocket positions are placed in or right next to civilian buildings.  The deliberately embed their terrorists in heavily populated areas, ensuring civilian deaths if they are attacked.  They do this because they know that westerners will see civilian deaths and start sympathizing with them, or at the very least start castigating Israel.  In that regard this is working like a charm.  They rely on and abuse your empathy so they can remain in power and continue deliberately killing innocent people.  We also love to kick the can down the road in the west instead of making hard decisions.

Honestly, if WW2 had happened during the digital age we'd have the exact same people talking about a ceasefire with Germany and Japan and both those government would remain in power.  It is possible to deplore the loss of life in Gaza while acknowledging that this is not a situation of Israel's choosing and that leaving Hamas in power simply ensures this will all happen again in the future.

[Belsnickel]

(12-20-2023, 01:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Honestly, if WW2 had happened during the digital age we'd have the exact same people talking about a ceasefire with Germany and Japan and both those government would remain in power.  It is possible to deplore the loss of life in Gaza while acknowledging that this is not a situation of Israel's choosing and that leaving Hamas in power simply ensures this will all happen again in the future.

The problem is that this situation is of Israel's choosing. They make the choices to engage in the type of war they are carrying out rather than more surgical, targeted strikes like our government has tried to encourage. They have chosen to strike areas they have told refugees to flee to, telling them they would be safe. And, most importantly, Netanyahu chose to prop up Hamas as the leaders in Gaza to prevent the Palestinian Authority from gaining any ground towards a two-state solution because he and his allies do not want to see an independent Palestinian state. Now the actions of his government are going to be radicalizing whatever survivors exist, ensuring that even if Hamas is destroyed during this war there is a 100% guarantee that another group will step into the vacuum left behind. Whether is it Hamas or another organization, this will all happen again.

I have no sympathy for Hamas. I have no sympathy for Netanyahu and his government. My sympathies only rest with the innocent Gazans who are struggling right now and with those who are mourning the loss, whether it be through death or kidnapping, of their loved ones from the 10/7 attack.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(12-20-2023, 03:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The problem is that this situation is of Israel's choosing. They make the choices to engage in the type of war they are carrying out rather than more surgical, targeted strikes like our government has tried to encourage.

This is not wholly accurate.  Israel did not choose the instant conflict, Hamas did.  Surgical attacks are rather difficult when your enemy is dispersed within the civilian population and dresses like them.  You cannot clear a tunnel complex without surrounding all of its entrances.  You cannot surround all its entrances without controlling the area around the entrances.  You cannot control the areas around the entrances without advancing troops through enemy territory to get there.  You cannot do that without a secure perimeter to enable logistical support.  You're grossly oversimplifying what needs to be done accomplish these tasks.

Quote:They have chosen to strike areas they have told refugees to flee to, telling them they would be safe.

Could it be this occurs because Hamas congregates themselves in these areas for reasons we've already discussed?

Quote:And, most importantly, Netanyahu chose to prop up Hamas as the leaders in Gaza to prevent the Palestinian Authority from gaining any ground towards a two-state solution because he and his allies do not want to see an independent Palestinian state.

This is true, but I think you're overstating the impact of his, admittedly underhanded, decision in this regard.  Whatever effect this has had is absolutely dwarfed by Qatar for example.  Qatar not only provides safe haven for Hamas leadership but effectively launders money for them as well.  Yet we hear almost nothing of them in the news and I don't recall a single post in this forum mentioning them as a major contributor to this conflict.

Quote:Now the actions of his government are going to be radicalizing whatever survivors exist, ensuring that even if Hamas is destroyed during this war there is a 100% guarantee that another group will step into the vacuum left behind. Whether is it Hamas or another organization, this will all happen again.

Maybe.  Let's say even probably.  Does it create more risk of a future conflict over leaving Hamas intact?  Unknown, but we can most assuredly say that leaving Hamas intact guarantees future 1/07 attacks, as they've publicly stated so.

Quote:I have no sympathy for Hamas. I have no sympathy for Netanyahu and his government. My sympathies only rest with the innocent Gazans who are struggling right now and with those who are mourning the loss, whether it be through death or kidnapping, of their loved ones from the 10/7 attack.

Here we 100% agree.

[NATI BENGALS]

Nothing like rape, famine, sickness, suffering, murder, death, and destruction!! Thanks religion! What would we do without you?

[Dill]

(12-20-2023, 10:21 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't see much of an alternative. When the enemy buries themselves within innocent civilians and yet attacks you, I don't see how they can do anything precisely. Especially when they wear civilian clothes. I think we all know what their goal is by doing this, so who's really to blame? They create operations under hospitals for God's sake. There's been a lot of talk about flooding the tunnels and I think that's a good idea. If they are worried about killing innocent hostages that way, it's not much different than killing innocent victims with bombs. 

The US was in a similar situation fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq, and killed a large number of civilians as well--yet proportionately far less than what Israel is doing now. And the reward we reaped for that was ISIS and a return to Iraq.  That's why the US (i.e., our intel/military establishment) does see alternatives. 

20,000 dead is already more than Israel killed in the 1982 Lebanon invasion--the invasion which created Hezbollah--and they aren't half done in Gaza yet. 

As far as "who's to blame?" It comes back to the dispossession and occupation. You drive people off their land, pen them up in an open
air prison denying them citizenship and human rights, then you cannot be surprised when after generations despair and oppression, a small mass of
fighting age males breaks out and inflicts what damage they can. And you cannot be surprised if an insurgent fighting force without tanks and aircraft and no ground separate from civilians "buries themselves in innocent civilians." If Israel votes into office people who consider such realistic assessments "apologies for terrorism" then the cycle will certainly continue. 

The Lebanon War pretty much neutralized the PLO's 15,000 man fighting force--an initial success--but pushed it in the more dangerous (for Israel) direction of diplomatic solution. Within 10 years that physical threat was replaced by Hezbollah, with 25,000 men in uniform and another 40,000+ reservists, all behind sophisticated lines of defense (including anti-aircraft) and one of the worlds largest reserves of state of the art missiles--including smart intermediate-range missiles, not Hamas-style Qassams.

As they watch massive bombing of helpless civilians in Gaza, Israel supporters with some geopolitical sense should be thinking about where Israel's security will be five years from now.  They should be thinking of US security as well, given that we are now joined at the hip with Israel, for both the war and occupation.

[Belsnickel]

Whatever your view on the NYT, their podcast is often a very intriguing listen. I keep it as a part of my regular listening and today's episode was especially poignant for this discussion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/podcasts/the-daily/biden-israel-us.html

They discussed the view of the people here towards Israel and the current conflict. They have some recent polling that shows the trends and they discuss what seems to be driving the decline in support for Israel that we are seeing among the young(er) people in the country. They talk about a linear trend of declining support based on age. The tl;dr version is:

• Silent Generation - Saw the Holocaust happen and/or knew people directly impacted
• Baby Boomers - Saw Israel struggle to survive and be the "little country that could"
• Gen X - Saw Israel take part in a peace process aimed at a two-state solution
• Millennials - Saw the rise of Netanyahu and the right-wing government in Israel that has been a world power and completely against the idea of a two-state solution while also coming of age during the GWOT and questioning the value of American interventionist policies in the region
• Gen Z - Has seen nothing but Israel acting more in the bully capacity rather than as a victim
  

[samhain]

(12-22-2023, 04:14 PM)Dill Wrote: The US was in a similar situation fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq, and killed a large number of civilians as well--yet proportionately far less than what Israel is doing now. And the reward we reaped for that was ISIS and a return to Iraq.  That's why the US (i.e., our intel/military establishment) does see alternatives. 

20,000 dead is already more than Israel killed in the 1982 Lebanon invasion--the invasion which created Hezbollah--and they aren't half done in Gaza yet. 

As far as "who's to blame?" It comes back to the dispossession and occupation. You drive people off their land, pen them up in an open
air prison denying them citizenship and human rights, then you cannot be surprised when after generations despair and oppression, a small mass of
fighting age males breaks out and inflicts what damage they can. And you cannot be surprised if an insurgent fighting force without tanks and aircraft and no ground separate from civilians "buries themselves in innocent civilians." If Israel votes into office people who consider such realistic assessments "apologies for terrorism" then the cycle will certainly continue. 

The Lebanon War pretty much neutralized the PLO's 15,000 man fighting force--an initial success--but pushed it in the more dangerous (for Israel) direction of diplomatic solution. Within 10 years that physical threat was replaced by Hezbollah, with 25,000 men in uniform and another 40,000+ reservists, all behind sophisticated lines of defense (including anti-aircraft) and one of the worlds largest reserves of state of the art missiles--including smart intermediate-range missiles, not Hamas-style Qassams.

As they watch massive bombing of helpless civilians in Gaza, Israel supporters with some geopolitical sense should be thinking about where Israel's security will be five years from now.  They should be thinking of US security as well, given that we are now joined at the hip with Israel, for both the war and occupation.

Israel always benefits from something of a double standard.  When the US unleashes on an adversary, great care is taken to at the very least create an appearance of humanitarian concern.  It may not always be an accurate perspective, but minimizing impact to non-combatants is avoided as much as it can be.  Or at least our government is willing to go out of it's way to convince people both in the US and around the world that we're not wanton murderers.  

Israel seems to have a FU card when it comes to murdering adversaries.  Responses are often expected to be disproportionate and without apology.  

Despite this, I favor Israel in this conflict.  I don't say that because I agree with their tactics or heavy handedness.  I say it because they are the only liberal nation in the region, and one of the historically most liberal in the world.  I want them to succeed, although they've definitely taken an unfortunate authoritarian turn of late (as many western nations have).

I regard fundamentalist Islam much the same as I do evangelical Christianity.  I dislike their culture gaining influence here or anywhere.  Liberals who support organizations like Hamas out of sympathy for the unfortunate victims of the war should take care to compartmentalize their reasoning..  Women, homosexuals, atheists, even believers of other persuasions would likely not fare well in most nations governed by Islamic authorities.  In many cases they would be in real physical danger by merely openly existing.  Most of those people, however, would be just fine in Tel Aviv.  

I also intensely dislike Nazis and any other far right shitbag organization that regularly licks the balls of Donald Trump.  Surprisingly, or maybe not, there seems to be a bit of a strange alignment between Jew hating YPIPO and Jew-hating Muslims.  Swastikas are cool again in the most left-wing of protests.  Even a surprising number of nonwhite public figures seem willing to embrace Nazi iconography and Jew-hatred despite the obvious incongruence of other core beliefs.  How does this shit even happen?  

If the popular narrative conflict becomes Muslims and Nazis somehow uniting against Jews, then I'm for the Jews all day long regardless of tactics.  The Israel situation has never been perfect, but it beats the hell out of a world where laughably hard-right groups like the aforementioned gain public sympathy ahead of the Jewish state.  In that, I'd say I'd hope that the Israelis back off in time to conserve the perception of being sympathetic rather than oppressive.  It's likely too late, and they may find themselves regretting it.

[HarleyDog]

(12-22-2023, 04:14 PM)Dill Wrote: The US was in a similar situation fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq, and killed a large number of civilians as well--yet proportionately far less than what Israel is doing now. And the reward we reaped for that was ISIS and a return to Iraq.  That's why the US (i.e., our intel/military establishment) does see alternatives. 

20,000 dead is already more than Israel killed in the 1982 Lebanon invasion--the invasion which created Hezbollah--and they aren't half done in Gaza yet. 

As far as "who's to blame?" It comes back to the dispossession and occupation. You drive people off their land, pen them up in an open
air prison denying them citizenship and human rights, then you cannot be surprised when after generations despair and oppression, a small mass of
fighting age males breaks out and inflicts what damage they can. And you cannot be surprised if an insurgent fighting force without tanks and aircraft and no ground separate from civilians "buries themselves in innocent civilians." If Israel votes into office people who consider such realistic assessments "apologies for terrorism" then the cycle will certainly continue. 

The Lebanon War pretty much neutralized the PLO's 15,000 man fighting force--an initial success--but pushed it in the more dangerous (for Israel) direction of diplomatic solution. Within 10 years that physical threat was replaced by Hezbollah, with 25,000 men in uniform and another 40,000+ reservists, all behind sophisticated lines of defense (including anti-aircraft) and one of the worlds largest reserves of state of the art missiles--including smart intermediate-range missiles, not Hamas-style Qassams.

As they watch massive bombing of helpless civilians in Gaza, Israel supporters with some geopolitical sense should be thinking about where Israel's security will be five years from now.  They should be thinking of US security as well, given that we are now joined at the hip with Israel, for both the war and occupation.

Word Salad.

[Dill]

(12-23-2023, 05:06 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Word Salad.

Especially the part about "alternatives."

[GMDino]

The Christmas parade in Bethlehem is a somber affair this year. The usual jubilant event led by Palestinian bagpipers has been replaced by a silent march as Palestinian Christians stand with their Muslim brethern who are being slaughtered in Gaza.pic.twitter.com/Y9Chp1LcCj

— Ragged Trousered Philanderer (@RaggedTP) December 24, 2023

<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>