Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[HarleyDog]

(04-16-2024, 08:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: One doesn’t have to be a conservative to have a problem with death to America chants.

Any thought of a conservative monopoly on patriotism should have died on January 6.

I agreed with you until you said, Jan 6. Although traditionally, People who vote GOP don't burn flags, cities, police departments, etc. I was willing to give you that. And actually, I still do because I know you don't speak for all Dems. Only a small portion. 

[Belsnickel]

(04-16-2024, 07:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Neither do I.  What I find laughable is the assertion that a majority of Muslim nations issues (people btw, not the government) with Israel isn't that they are Jews.  Modern history is replete with examples of Islamic extremism, from single person actions like what just occurred in Australia, to groups like Boko Haram, to larger groups like Al Qaeda, to government sized groups like ISIS, the Taliban and, largest of all, Iran.  There is literally no equivalence to the Jewish faith in this regard, and no equivalence to Christianity in anything remotely like the same time frame.

I know it hurts certain people to admit the obvious, but there will never be peace in the Middle East until Islamic extremism is rendered a tiny minority, and this will have to be done by their fellow Muslims.  Pretending that conflict in that region is motivated more by anything other than that is a glib distraction.

I disagree with the bold. There is a long history of Jews and Muslims living as neighbors without issue. They fought together against Christian invaders during the Crusades. What changed? Western meddling in the region that displaced many and drew borders without true consideration of the people of the region. This doesn't mean there isn't just some straight up Jew-hating in the mix, but I think that your viewpoint on this is a gross oversimplification.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-16-2024, 08:17 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: One doesn’t have to be a conservative to have a problem with death to America chants.

Any thought of a conservative monopoly on patriotism should have died on January 6.

One doesn't have to be liberal to condemn "Jews will not replace us" chants.  Yet your side has been bludgeoning the right with that one for years.  I don't think either side ever had a monopoly on patriotism, but the radical left seems to get far more of a pass than the radical right and it makes one wonder why.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-16-2024, 08:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I disagree with the bold. There is a long history of Jews and Muslims living as neighbors without issue. They fought together against Christian invaders during the Crusades.

The is above should be replaced with was.  While what you're saying is certainly correct, it is also ancient history.

Quote:What changed? Western meddling in the region that displaced many and drew borders without true consideration of the people of the region. This doesn't mean there isn't just some straight up Jew-hating in the mix, but I think that your viewpoint on this is a gross oversimplification.

Sorry, I'm not willing to erase all the sins of modern day Islam with the panacea of "Western meddling."  However we got here, we're here.  Islam has a serious rot at its core right now and, for some reason, many people are afraid to flat out acknowledge that.  Of course that doesn't mean every Muslim is a radical, far from it.  But, Islam is going to have to come to terms with why the religion is so easily, and regularly, turned towards radical purposes in today's rather more enlightened than the Crusades age.  If their radical elements feel comfortable chanting death to a secular country they reside in, one can only imagine what they are comfortable with in a country in which their religion holds sway.  Actually, one needn't imagine, you must only look to Iran and Afghanistan for current examples.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-16-2024, 09:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: One doesn't have to be liberal to condemn "Jews will not replace us" chants.  Yet your side has been bludgeoning the right with that one for years.  I don't think either side ever had a monopoly on patriotism, but the radical left seems to get far more of a pass than the radical right and it makes one wonder why.

Umm excuse me? Do you not consider maintaining his spot as the leader of a political party after attempting a coup that would have destroyed our democracy getting a pass? Voting for a guy to be POTUS when he is involved in multiple criminal cases is probably the biggest pass you can get in politics.

Compared to some no name jackass doing a chant on the street who you have no idea what party they are affiliated with. I mean come on?

Quite a story you’re telling yourself there.

[Mike M (the other one)]

The is above should be replaced with was.  While what you're saying is certainly correct, it is also ancient history.

[quote pid='1473623' dateline='1713311908']
What changed? Western meddling in the region that displaced many and drew borders without true consideration of the people of the region. This doesn't mean there isn't just some straight up Jew-hating in the mix, but I think that your viewpoint on this is a gross oversimplification.
[/quote]

Sorry, I'm not willing to erase all the sins of modern day Islam with the panacea of "Western meddling."  However we got here, we're here.  Islam has a serious rot at its core right now and, for some reason, many people are afraid to flat out acknowledge that.  Of course that doesn't mean every Muslim is a radical, far from it.  But, Islam is going to have to come to terms with why the religion is so easily, and regularly, turned towards radical purposes in today's rather more enlightened than the Crusades age.  If their radical elements feel comfortable chanting death to a secular country they reside in, one can only imagine what they are comfortable with in a country in which their religion holds sway.  Actually, one needn't imagine, you must only look to Iran and Afghanistan for current examples.
[/quote]

Yea, they were killing each other long before we were even a nation 

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-16-2024, 08:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I agreed with you until you said, Jan 6. Although traditionally, People who vote GOP don't burn flags, cities, police departments, etc. I was willing to give you that. And actually, I still do because I know you don't speak for all Dems. Only a small portion. 

The silent majority I like to think 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-17-2024, 02:14 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: The silent majority I like to think 

A Dem silent? that's like finding a Unicorn.

[Dill]

(04-16-2024, 08:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  What I find laughable is the assertion that a majority of Muslim nations issues (people btw, not the government) with Israel isn't that they are Jews

I disagree with the bold. There is a long history of Jews and Muslims living as neighbors without issue. They fought together against Christian invaders during the Crusades. What changed? Western meddling in the region that displaced many and drew borders without true consideration of the people of the region. This doesn't mean there isn't just some straight up Jew-hating in the mix, but I think that your viewpoint on this is a gross oversimplification.

All three religions of the book have had difficulty with tolerance, given the command to have no other gods before them. 

It's only in circumstances where they have had to share power that tolerance became a Biblical/Quranic teaching. Jews were the "terrorists" of the Eastern Mediterranean in the 1st century CE, massacring thousands of "idolaters" in Alexandria, Cyprus and other places. Christians killed more Jews in 1944 alone than all Muslims combined since the 7th century. And it is Christian intolerance that set European Zionism in motion.  

"Western meddling" is a bit of an understatement, given the direct colonization and control by Western powers of much of the region, which continues less directly with US support of authoritarian regimes there, and its active work in creating "peace" for Israel by buying off such regimes with US aid, to the detriment of democracy and development in the region. 

It's only absent knowledge of this history of colonization and exploitation, the Palestinian displacement, and effects of accelerated modernization, that some mysterious "core rot" of Islam can be read into myriad, diverse conflicts in the Muslim/Arab world as a primary cause. 

In structure, this ideology forms a belief system rather like religion, incorporating bits and pieces of some events while excluding others, and knitting them together into a worldview which explains/"predicts" everything after the fact, while remaining impervious to empirical correction. "Hate," always an effect to be explained in materialist accounts of professional historians, suddenly becomes an a (non) explanatory "cause" and primary driver of Muslim politics. Rather like claiming some common Native American hatred of Christianity was the root cause of the Pequot, Sioux and Apache wars. 

That they were driven from their homes and live under military domination just can't be the REAL reason Palestinians hate Israelis.

(04-16-2024, 08:58 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  This doesn't mean there isn't just some straight up Jew-hating in the mix, but I think that your viewpoint on this is a gross oversimplification.

The "Jew-hating" I've encountered in Jordan, Egypt and Qatar has always passed through condemnation of Israel's treatment of Palestinians. That's the real issue for them.  Sometimes it seems the mirror image of Islamaphobic paranoia, with "Jews" controlling US foreign policy and the UN; but that is ONLY an issue because of the way Israel fits into their own regional politics as a dominant Western military power bullying and displacing Arabs. Just the continuation of violent colonization. 

This isn't to say religion plays no role in the response of Mulsim countries to Israel's founding; Islam creates a bond of identity, so Muslims in far away Morroco and Afghanistan can still empathize closely with Palestinians, just as Jews in the US empathize with Israelis. And it becomes a rallying cry when the US settles troops and bases in Muslim countries while protecting Israel.

But had the Nakba not occurred, they'd waste no more of their time "hating Jews" than most Americans do.  

[HarleyDog]

(04-17-2024, 08:49 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: A Dem silent? that's like finding a Unicorn.

[Dill]

A glimpse into the kind of debates going on in Israel, following the Iranian attack. The author is a reserve General in the IDF.
This one stood out to me for the author's comprehensive grasp of Israel's national interest at the moment, and what looks like a good grasp
of how options and alternatives can play out over the long term.    I edited out a few statements to shorten this.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The Strategic and Diplomatic Opportunity Created by Iran's Attack on Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-04-16/ty-article-opinion/.premium/the-strategic-and-diplomatic-opportunity-created-by-irans-attack-on-israel/0000018e-e7fd-d35c-a39e-f7ffbddc0000?utm_source=mailchimp&utm_medium=Content&utm_campaign=haaretz-today&utm_content=142e4707fb

Iran's attack against Israel created an unprecedented diplomatic and strategic opportunity for Israel. Realization of that opportunity depends on political vision, leadership and clear thinking.

In business terms, Israel can now make an exit and realize the new benefits created. Such a policy of exit and realization is what a responsible, sane and serious cabinet should adopt, and quickly.
The Iranian attack of April 14 is an opportunity to reshape the harsh reality in which the country has been immersed for months. There appears to be a shift in global public opinion. The fact that the United States, U.K., France and Jordan stood with Israel, with the quiet support of the Gulf states, ends the country's deepening isolation, which had reached a point of danger to its security....

This new reality should not be taken for granted. Members of the regional alliance – headed by the U.S. – avoided acting when Iran attacked strategic Saudi assets. The switch in policy direction by U.S. President Joe Biden will not last if Israel does not utilize it to significantly change the disastrous policy of the Netanyahu government.

Israel must change the strategic balance, realize its significant military achievements in Gaza and stop the war. It must create the conditions for the return of the hostages held in Gaza, protect its freedom of action, and simultaneously realize the vision of a regional defensive alliance led by the United States under President Biden....

But more importantly is what happened here in the days leading up to the Iranian attack: the creation of a de facto defense alliance with the leading military members of NATO – the U.S., U.K. and France – alongside the moderate Gulf states and our neighbor to the east, Jordan.

The display of the regional alliance's purpose underscores how dangerous Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's diplomatic policy is, and how disastrous are his isolationist moves and those of the fascist partners in his government. The combination of these intelligence, defensive and offensive capabilities are a guarantee of regional peace, but also the survival of the State of Israel.

The campaign against Iran is ongoing, and Israel arrives to this confrontation when it is not at its best. Society is disintegrating, national resilience is badly bruised and our people, our women, children and elderly have been abandoned. The Iranian proxy to the north (Hezbollah) is far from defeated, and Israel has lost important deterrent assets, which will require ongoing preparation and renewal of capabilities and supplies.

Above all, it will require renewing public confidence, after Israel withdrew from its fundamental strategy and established a security strip inside its territory turning thousands of its citizens into refugees inside their own country.
Halting the fighting in Gaza under the new conditions created on April 14 serves the Israeli interest, strengthens security and creates new conditions for a possible future confrontation. For the first time, Israel is realizing the military achievement for a worthy diplomatic purpose.

Hamas has taken a severe blow. Israel can maintain full security freedom in Gaza and transfer security powers to a regional multinational force and civilian responsibility to the Palestinian Authority. This situation creates optimal conditions for the return of the hostages and the return of displaced Palestinians to their homes in the south and north.
Establishment of a regional alliance will serve Israel in a confrontation with Hezbollah, and in its demands of the Palestinian Authority. Risk management has changed and Israel benefits from a far better equation against Iran, which has never been so close to nuclear weapons capability.

By opting for a late exit from Gaza now, we would for the first time test the moderate Sunni liberal democratic axis against the fundamentalist Shi'ite axis, Iran, Russia, and China – an extremist, violent axis that destroys regional and global stability. Israel must choose which axis it wants to belong to.
It is entirely clear that without an appropriate regional approach centered on willingness to move forward in the Palestinian arena, there will be no such regional alliance, which constitutes a solid security front. The breach of the Iranian attack unequivocally clarifies the scale of the decision that Israel must make....

Major General (res.) Yair Golan served as IDF deputy chief of staff, chief of Northern Command and chief of Home Front Command.

[NATI BENGALS]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-missiles-hit-iran-abc-015447864.html

Explosion in Iran city with nuclear facilities.

I’ll be putting some of the good bourbon to work tonight

[StoneTheCrow]

(04-19-2024, 12:10 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-missiles-hit-iran-abc-015447864.html

Explosion in Iran city with nuclear facilities.

I’ll be putting some of the good bourbon to work tonight

*Clink*

New Riff single barrel, good enough.

[Dill]

(04-19-2024, 12:10 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-missiles-hit-iran-abc-015447864.html

Explosion in Iran city with nuclear facilities.

I’ll be putting some of the good bourbon to work tonight

If there is no major damage and few or no casualties,

this could be manageable. 

But definitely not in Israel's interest to expand the war.

Netanyahu and the Likud's far right are another matter.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-19-2024, 12:20 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: *Clink*

New Riff single barrel, good enough.

I managed to score a bottle of Wellers recently, so I'm rather pleased.  I used to be able to find it on the regular, but it exploded in popularity and now all the Newport Beach snobs keep snapping it up.

[StoneTheCrow]

(04-19-2024, 11:06 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I managed to score a bottle of Wellers recently, so I'm rather pleased.  I used to be able to find it on the regular, but it exploded in popularity and now all the Newport Beach snobs keep snapping it up.

Not to derail but the Weller 12 year is a delight.

Anyhoo…

[GMDino]

(04-14-2024, 01:48 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He specifically asked me to address this.  Is your position that I cannot answer his question directly as asked?  Could you cry about it more, in public?  Why don't you be an actual man for a change and say what you're begging for, that you want me banned because I hurt you in the feelings?  I guess when your arguments are morally and intellectually bankrupt appealing for your opponent to be banned is your only recourse.

What a pathetic display.

So a poster asked if you superficially called him an anti-semite.  You said that yes you did. You admitted to a violation of the rules.

And your response then is to attack another poster (me) while playing the victim card.

And *I* am the bad guy in your eyes because you did it?

You do you.  I don't care who posts here, but I was told there were new rules and I'm living and posting by them.

Try and do the same...but don't blame anyone else if you get caught.

[GMDino]

(04-19-2024, 11:09 AM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Not to derail but the Weller 12 year is a delight.

Anyhoo…

Not a bourbon guy but my boss is.  Cripes the prices some of those bottles is insane.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-20-2024, 09:32 PM)GMDino Wrote:

So a poster asked if you superficially called him an anti-semite.  You said that yes you did. You admitted to a violation of the rules.

Yes, I did someone the courtesy of responding to their assertion.  You then took that opportunity to whine like a child with a skinned knee about it.  Spin it however else you want.

[GMDino]

(04-21-2024, 03:13 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, I did someone the courtesy of responding to their assertion.  You then took that opportunity to whine like a child with a skinned knee about it.  Spin it however else you want.

Your "courtesy" was to admit you are willing and deliberately breaking the rules of the PNR forum and doing it specifically at one fellow poster.  

Just because you believe it doesn't mean you can say it...here. We ALL know that.

You can say I hate all police (and be wrong) all day long. I don't believe that is breaking the new rules.

You CAN'T say I am a racist (and be wrong) all day long. I believe that is breaking the new rules.

So I wanted to know where the line was really going to be for posters.

I sorry that pointing out the truth "hurt your feelings".