Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

OOPS! Looks like CNN has finally slipped IDF censorship.

[Belsnickel]

The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-11/ty-article-live/idf-discovers-hamas-tunnels-weapons-under-unrwas-hq-in-gaza/0000018d-9600-d443-a19f-fe91a0240000

This really has the potential to draw in other nations. I am truly concerned at this point because the likelihood is growing that Arab nations in the region will come together and team up on Israel and, truthfully, I don't want us stepping in. I want us to cut aid. This isn't our fight.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-11-2024, 10:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-11/ty-article-live/idf-discovers-hamas-tunnels-weapons-under-unrwas-hq-in-gaza/0000018d-9600-d443-a19f-fe91a0240000

This really has the potential to draw in other nations. I am truly concerned at this point because the likelihood is growing that Arab nations in the region will come together and team up on Israel and, truthfully, I don't want us stepping in. I want us to cut aid. This isn't our fight.

Yes, it could certainly escalate because of this.  The war has kind of phased out of our major news cycle and I think most Americans have moved on, so there's a perception that this thing is winding down, even finished.  I don't think Egypt ultimately gives a shit and probably quietly would be happy for Gaza to be under Israeli rule.  Has Syria recovered from their civil war enough to really project power into Israel?

[GMDino]

Saw this over the weekend.  Didn't have time to do much research but it is heartbreaking.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240210-body-of-gaza-girl-ambulance-team-trapped-under-israeli-fire-found-after-12-days/

Quote:Relatives found the body on Saturday of a 6-year-old Palestinian girl who had begged Gaza rescuers to send help after being trapped by Israeli military fire, along with the bodies of five of her family members and two ambulance workers who had gone to save her, Reuters reports.


The Palestine Red Crescent Society accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance it sent to rescue Hind Rajab after she had spent hours on the phone to dispatchers begging for help with the sound of shooting echoing around.


“The occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the site to rescue Hind,” the Red Crescent said in a statement.


Israel’s military did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment on the Red Crescent statement.


Family members found Hind’s body along with those of her uncle and aunt and their three children still in a car near a roundabout in the Tel al-Hawa suburb of Gaza City, the official Palestinian Wafa news agency reported.


Another of Hind’s uncles, Sameeh Hamadeh, said the car was peppered with bullet holes.


The plight of Hind, revealed in harrowing audio clips of her terrified conversation with rescue workers 12 days ago, underlined the impossible conditions for civilians in the face of Israel’s four-month assault on Gaza.


READ: UN official: ‘Israel violating Gaza children’s rights’


The war began on Oct. 7 when Hamas fighters attacked Israel, killing 1,200 people and seizing 253 hostages according to Israeli tallies.


Israel’s military has since overrun most of the tiny Palestinian enclave under an intense bombardment in a conflict that has killed nearly 28,000 people, according to Gaza health authorities.


During the course of the war, the Israeli military has said it takes steps to avoid civilian casualties. It has faced strong international criticism over the toll of dead and injured.


The audio clips released by the Red Crescent earlier this month recorded a call to dispatchers that was first made by Hind’s teenage cousin Layan Hamadeh, saying an Israeli tank was approaching before shots rang out and she screamed.


Believed to be the only survivor, Hind stayed on the line for three hours with dispatchers, who tried to soothe her as they prepared to send an ambulance.


“Come and get me,” Hind was heard crying desperately in another audio recording. “I’m so scared, please come.”


After deciding it was safe to approach the area, the dispatchers sent an ambulance with two crew, Youssef Zeino and Ahmed Al-Madhoon.


Contact was soon lost with both the ambulance team and Hind, leaving their families, colleagues and many around the world concerned about their fate.

[GMDino]

(02-11-2024, 10:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The IDF has been bombing Rafah, a city crammed with over 1 million refugees who were told by Israel to evacuate to the south of Gaza to avoid the fighting.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-11/ty-article-live/idf-discovers-hamas-tunnels-weapons-under-unrwas-hq-in-gaza/0000018d-9600-d443-a19f-fe91a0240000

This really has the potential to draw in other nations. I am truly concerned at this point because the likelihood is growing that Arab nations in the region will come together and team up on Israel and, truthfully, I don't want us stepping in. I want us to cut aid. This isn't our fight.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b?taid=65c9f48be58ebf0001ba109b&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

Quote:[color=var(--headlineColor)]Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages in dramatic Gaza raid that killed at least 67 Palestinians[/color]












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[color=var(--color-primary-text)]Israeli military spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said on Monday that two hostages who were rescued by the Israeli military from captivity in the Gaza Strip had been reunited with their families.
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[color=var(--color-byline-authors)]BY NAJIB JOBAIN, JOSEF FEDERMAN AND SAMY MAGDY[/color]
Updated 1:51 PM EST, February 12, 2024
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RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israeli forces rescued two hostages early Monday, storming a heavily guarded apartment in a densely packed town in the Gaza Strip as airstrikes carried out to cover the raid killed more than 60 Palestinians, including women and children.[/color]

The rescue in Rafah briefly lifted the spirits of Israelis shaken by the plight of the dozens of hostages held by Hamas. The nation is still reeling from the militant group’s cross-border raid last year that started the war.

The overnight bombardment brought devastation in Rafah, which is packed with some 1.4 million people, most of whom fled their homes elsewhere in Gaza to escape fighting. Associated Press footage showed a large area of flattened houses, tattered tents and lines of bloodied bodies brought into nearby hospitals.

Israel’s offensive has killed more than 28,000 Palestinians in the territory, displaced over 80% of the population and set off a massive humanitarian crisis.


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AP AUDIO: Israeli forces rescue 2 hostages in dramatic Gaza raid that killed at least 67 Palestinians.
Joe Federman, AP News Director for Israel, the Palestinian territories and Jordan, reports the hostage rescue took place in Rafah.
More than 12,300 Palestinian children and young teens have been killed in the conflict, Gaza’s Health Ministry said Monday. About 8,400 women were also among those killed. That means children and young teens make up about 43% of the dead, and women and minors together make up three quarters.

The ministry, which does not distinguish between combatants and civilians, provided the breakdown at the request of the AP. Israel claims to have killed about 10,000 Hamas fighters but has not provided evidence.

In Hamas’ cross-border raid on Oct. 7, an estimated 1,200 people, mostly civilians, were killed, and militants took 250 people captive, according to Israeli authorities.

Israel has described Rafah as the last remaining Hamas stronghold in the territory and signaled that its ground offensive may soon target the town on the southern edge of the Gaza Strip.

Israel says about 100 hostages remain in Hamas captivity after dozens were freed during a cease-fire in November. Hamas also holds the remains of roughly 30 others who were either killed on Oct. 7 or died in captivity.

The government has made freeing the hostages a top aim of its war, along with destroying Hamas’ military and governing capabilities. But as the fighting drags on, rifts have emerged in Israel over how to retrieve them.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says persistent military pressure will bring about the captives’ freedom even as families of the hostages and many of their supporters have called on the government to make another deal with Hamas.

A DRAMATIC RAID
Israeli military spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said special forces broke into a second-floor apartment in Rafah under fire at 1:49 a.m. Monday, accompanied a minute later by airstrikes on surrounding areas. He said Hamas militants were guarding the captives and that members of the rescue team shielded the hostages with their bodies as the battle erupted.

The army identified those rescued as Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, who were abducted from Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak on Oct. 7. They also hold Argentinian citizenship. They are among just three hostages to be rescued; a female soldier was rescued in November.

The rescue, which Hagari said was based on precise intelligence and planned for some time, is a morale booster for Israelis but a small step toward winning the release of the remaining hostages, who are believed to be spread out and hidden in tunnels.

Har’s son-in-law, Idan Begerano, who saw the released captives at the hospital where they were airlifted, said the two men were thin and pale, but communicating well and aware of their surroundings.

Begerano said Har told him immediately upon seeing him: “You have a birthday today, mazal tov.” The men held long, tearful embraces with their relatives at the hospital, according to video released by Netanyahu’s office.

DOZENS KILLED IN STRIKES
The airstrikes hit jam-packed Rafah in the middle of the night, and dozens of explosions could be heard around 2 a.m. Ashraf al-Qidra, spokesman for the Health Ministry, said at least 67 people, including women and children, were killed in the strikes.

Al-Qidra said rescuers were still searching the rubble. An Associated Press journalist counted at least 50 bodies at the Abu Youssef al-Najjar Hospital in Rafah.

Mohamed Zoghroub, a Palestinian living in Rafah, said he saw a black jeep speeding through the town followed by clashes and heavy airstrikes.

“We found ourselves running with our children, from the airstrikes, in every direction,” he said, speaking from an area flattened by the bombardment.

Footage circulating on social media from Rafah’s Kuwaiti hospital showed dead or wounded children. The footage could not immediately be verified but was consistent with AP reporting.

A young man could be seen carrying the body of an infant who he said was killed in the attacks. He said the girl, the daughter of his neighbor, was born and killed during the war.

“Let Netanyahu come and see: Is this one of your designated targets?” he said.

CONCERNS ABOUT RAFAH
Netanyahu has said sending ground troops into Rafah is essential to meeting Israel’s war goals. On Sunday, the White House said President Joe Biden had warned Netanyahu that Israel should not conduct a military operation there without a “credible and executable” plan to protect civilians.

More than half of Gaza’s 2.3 million population is now crammed into Rafah, where hundreds of thousands live in sprawling tent camps and overcrowded U.N. shelters.

Biden’s remarks, made in a phone call with Netanyahu, were his most forceful language yet on the possible operation.

Discussion of the potential for a cease-fire agreement took up much of the call, a senior U.S. administration official said. The official said that after weeks of diplomacy, a “framework” is now “pretty much” in place for a deal that could see the release of remaining hostages held by Hamas in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and a halt to fighting.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss negotiations, acknowledged that “gaps remain” but declined to give details. The official said military pressure on Hamas in the southern city of Khan Younis in recent weeks helped bring the group closer to accepting a deal.

Netanyahu’s office declined to comment on the call. Hamas’ Al-Aqsa television station earlier quoted an unnamed Hamas official as saying any invasion of Rafah would “blow up” the talks mediated by the United States, Egypt and Qatar.

Biden and Netanyahu spoke after two Egyptian officials and a Western diplomat said Egypt threatened to suspend its peace treaty with Israel if troops are sent into Rafah.
___
This story has been updated to correct that the number of minors killed is about 43% of the overall death toll in Gaza, not 47%.
___
Federman reported from Jerusalem and Magdy reported from Cairo. Associated Press writer Colleen Long in Washington contributed to this report.
___
Find more of AP’s coverage at https://apnews.com/hub/israel-hamas-war

It's like they just put them in a pen and are killing them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-12-2024, 06:39 PM)GMDino Wrote: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b?taid=65c9f48be58ebf0001ba109b&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter



It's like they just put them in a pen and are killing them.

The IDF just rescued two hostages that were being held in Rafah, per your own source.  How is the attack on Rafah then not the fault of the Hamas dogs sheltering in the city and holding hostages within?  Can you square that circle for me?

[Belsnickel]

(02-12-2024, 06:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The IDF just rescued two hostages that were being held in Rafah, per your own source.  How is the attack on Rafah then not the fault of the Hamas dogs sheltering in the city and holding hostages within?  Can you square that circle for me?

I personally tend to put fault on the person that pulled the trigger, those giving that person orders (if there are any), and then the conditions that created the reason for the violence. That is my order of blame in every situation, including this one. If more than two deaths of those 60+ were innocent Palestinians, then that is disproportionate. Israel is conducting this operation in an indiscriminate manner and it really is disgusting.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-12-2024, 09:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I personally tend to put fault on the person that pulled the trigger, those giving that person orders (if there are any), and then the conditions that created the reason for the violence.

Using this logic the US Army bomber pilot who dropped bombs on German cities is more responsible for any deaths caused by that bombing than Hitler.  While I absolutely would do whatever was reasonably possible to curb civilian casualties it becomes difficult to impossible when your enemy deliberately hides among them for the exact reason that you and others are outraged.  So I must wholeheartedly disagree.  As long as Israel takes reasonable measures to reduce civilian casualties, when possible, then the blame for any deaths falls squarely on Hamas.  Both for starting this war and for using civilians as human shields.

Quote:That is my order of blame in every situation, including this one. If more than two deaths of those 60+ were innocent Palestinians, then that is disproportionate. Israel is conducting this operation in an indiscriminate manner and it really is disgusting.

Why two?  Why not one or three?  Why not five?  You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense?    When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame.  While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion.  A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield.  It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Using this logic the US Army bomber pilot who dropped bombs on German cities is more responsible for any deaths caused by that bombing than Hitler. While I absolutely would do whatever was reasonably possible to curb civilian casualties it becomes difficult to impossible when your enemy deliberately hides among them for the exact reason that you and others are outraged. So I must wholeheartedly disagree. As long as Israel takes reasonable measures to reduce civilian casualties, when possible, then the blame for any deaths falls squarely on Hamas. Both for starting this war and for using civilians as human shields.

But Israel is not taking reasonable measures, and that is the issue.

(02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why two?  Why not one or three?  Why not five?  You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense?    When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame.  While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion.  A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield.  It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well. 

I started typing up a response, got distracted and lost my train of thought. Anyway, there were two captives rescued and 30 times that of Palestinians killed. If more than two of them were innocents, which it is likely they were, then that is disproportionate. I just can't justify the exponential disparity in casualties.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-13-2024, 03:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But Israel is not taking reasonable measures, and that is the issue.

Are they not?  I've seen a lot of conflicting information on this subject.  Also, reasonable is, of course, subjective.  

Quote:I started typing up a response, got distracted and lost my train of thought. Anyway, there were two captives rescued and 30 times that of Palestinians killed. If more than two of them were innocents, which it is likely they were, then that is disproportionate. I just can't justify the exponential disparity in casualties.

Fair, as that is a logical framework for viewing it.  Personally, I would not apply such a standard to the operations based on the following reasons. 1. Hamas started this conflict by, in part, taking these hostages.  2.  Hamas deliberately took civilian hostages.  3. Hamas then hides said hostages in highly populated civilian areas in order to expose as many civilian casualties as possible to any rescue attempt conducted by Israel.  4.  Allowing Hamas to use this tactic only ensures it will continue to be used, both with more frequency and in increasingly more significant fashion.  5.  Hamas is the one deliberately exposing their own people to potential death and injury.

None of these can be reasonably disputed.  Hence, civilian casualties in such operations happen directly due to intentional action by Hamas.  Consequently, I would not personally ascribe to your one for one position

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

BTW, Bel, this back and forth really does an excellent job of illustrating just how effective this tactic by Hamas is. If I may be presumptuous, I think we're both reasonable people, yet we see this scenario through a completely different lens. In this exact scenario you see a one for for one trade as being the only acceptable outcome/risk. Not preferable, but acceptable. Myself, I would view it this way. There is a plan to free two hostages and it has a high chance of success. The low end for civilian casualties is say, fifteen, with the high end being around a hundred. I'm greenlighting it all day, and for the reasons I gave above. Now if the roles in this conflict were completely reversed (and I know it's not that black and white), I'd have a completely different view of things. At the end of the day you can't sucker punch someone in the face and then complain when they beat your ass. You stared the thing, deal with the consequences. Hence my assigning the blame for civilian casualties to the group willfully exposing them to harm as a deliberate tactic.

Maybe we just can't agree on this, which is fine. But I'll reiterate, the fact that Hamas can win you to their side on this issue (the civilian casualties issue, I know you do not support Hamas in any way), just shows how damn effective it is. Hence it will continue and more civilians will be exposed.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-13-2024, 02:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Why two?  Why not one or three?  Why not five?  You see how arbitrary numbers in this regard at then end of the day make zero sense?    When your enemy deliberately hides behind civilians then they are to blame.  While we don't have all the facts, it appears the shooter in Houston was using a five year old in the same fashion.  A pro-Palestine message on their gun and using a five year old as a human shield.  It would appear that they've learned their lesson from Hamas well. 

See, here’s where I partially disagree. Yes, I do agree that Hamas is to blame when innocent civilians are killed. But you know who else I blame when innocent civilians are killed in these types of scenarios? The innocent civilians themselves. Let me clarify that point.

And I’m being 100% serious when I say this…….  If you’re willingly lying in bed with the devil, don’t complain when you get thrown into hell with him. Now, I get there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas. But for those that are harboring them? You reap what you sow.

Some may say that’s a bad take, but I believe the real term is guilty by association.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-13-2024, 04:15 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: See, here’s where I partially disagree. Yes, I do agree that Hamas is to blame when innocent civilians are killed. But you know who else I blame when innocent civilians are killed in these types of scenarios? The innocent civilians themselves. Let me clarify that point.

And I’m being 100% serious when I say this…….  If you’re willingly lying in bed with the devil, don’t complain when you get thrown into hell with him. Now, I get there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas. But for those that are harboring them? You reap what you sow.

Some may say that’s a bad take, but I believe the real term is guilty by association.

I can't agree with this when you are effectively ruled by an autocratic regime that will kill you if you dissent.  Yes, Hamas was voted in, but that occurred in 2006.  So there has been no subsequent opportunity to peacefully transfer power to another entity.  While I certainly don't think Hamas is wildly unpopular in Gaza, they probably don't have near the level of support most people would think they do.  Even if they did, I can't blame children for the actions of their parents.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-13-2024, 04:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I can't agree with this when you are effectively ruled by an autocratic regime that will kill you if you dissent.  Yes, Hamas was voted in, but that occurred in 2006.  So there has been no subsequent opportunity to peacefully transfer power to another entity.  While I certainly don't think Hamas is wildly unpopular in Gaza, they probably don't have near the level of support most people would think they do.  Even if they did, I can't blame children for the actions of their parents.

I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. 

But to those that are willing to accept them and their genocidal ideology,? They must also be ready to accept the wrath that will befall them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-13-2024, 04:38 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. 

But to those that are willing to accept them and their genocidal ideology,? They must also be ready to accept the wrath that will befall them.

Which, as I said, is far fewer people than you probably think.  I have a hard time holding individual people responsible for the actions of their government, especially when there have been no elections in fourteen years and your government will literally murder you if you speak out against them.  Citizens who support Hamas I agree are getting what they asked for/support.  But there's no way of discerning one from a person who does not, especially in this context.  Consequently, I cannot agree with you.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I'll give you a real world example of my own. If you've read many of my posts you know I loathe our current LA County DA, Gascon. I revile the man and he's caused tremendous harm to the county and its residents. But one thing I have to give him, he's doing exactly what he said he would do when he was campaigning. I deal with victims on a daily basis and he often comes up due to his tendency to wildly under charge criminals and give them amazingly lenient plea deals. They, almost to a person, indicate they voted for him and didn't realize just how bad he'd be. This is despite him doing exactly what he said he'd do. I do not hold these people any ill will, nor do I think they deserve the ill treatment they are receiving, despite voting for it, albeit often unknowingly. They realize they made a mistake.

Thankfully LA County residents have an opportunity this year to send the POS packing. Anyone who regrets voting for Hamas, or never would have given the chance, has had no such opportunity. I hope this made my position a little more clear/understandable.

[Belsnickel]

(02-13-2024, 04:38 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not blaming children. I'm blaming those who are willingly protecting them that have the capacity to think for themselves. As I said, I get that there are those who want nothing to do with Hamas and I don't include them in that. 

But to those that are willing to accept them and their genocidal ideology,? They must also be ready to accept the wrath that will befall them.

40% of Gaza's population (prior to the current events, hard to say what it looks like, now) was 14 or under.

Of 2,098,389 people in 2023 (according to Statista), 1,479,221 were under age 30. So in 2006, the last time there was an election and Hamas took control and established their autocratic regime, they were a tween or younger, if they were even alive. I mean, 1,087,693 of them are under 20, so more than half weren't even weened from the tit if they were even alive.

So this population had nothing to do with putting Hamas in power and have done nothing but suffered under this autocratic regime that has, for the record, been propped up and elevated by Netanyahu's government.

They are trapped in Gaza. The access in and out of the area is controlled by Israel. Their access to the outside world is restricted by what Hamas will allow for and so far as Israel allows as well. What they are taught is that the situation they are in is due to Israeli occupation and most have no way of finding out any different.

Unless they take violent action against Israeli forces, then they do not deserve to die in this conflict.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-13-2024, 06:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: 40% of Gaza's population (prior to the current events, hard to say what it looks like, now) was 14 or under.

Of 2,098,389 people in 2023 (according to Statista), 1,479,221 were under age 30. So in 2006, the last time there was an election and Hamas took control and established their autocratic regime, they were a tween or younger, if they were even alive. I mean, 1,087,693 of them are under 20, so more than half weren't even weened from the tit if they were even alive.

So this population had nothing to do with putting Hamas in power and have done nothing but suffered under this autocratic regime that has, for the record, been propped up and elevated by Netanyahu's government.

They are trapped in Gaza. The access in and out of the area is controlled by Israel. Their access to the outside world is restricted by what Hamas will allow for and so far as Israel allows as well. What they are taught is that the situation they are in is due to Israeli occupation and most have no way of finding out any different.

Unless they take violent action against Israeli forces, then they do not deserve to die in this conflict.

Egypt also controls access into and out of Gaza.  Aside from that we're on the same page.

[Matt_Crimson]

(02-13-2024, 04:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Which, as I said, is far fewer people than you probably think.  I have a hard time holding individual people responsible for the actions of their government, especially when there have been no elections in fourteen years and your government will literally murder you if you speak out against them.  Citizens who support Hamas I agree are getting what they asked for/support.  But there's no way of discerning one from a person who does not, especially in this context.  Consequently, I cannot agree with you.

But I feel like we agree. At least partially.

Sure, it could be fewer or it could be more. My point was not to quantify anything here. My point was to express that those who have supported or continue to support Hamas cannot complain about Israel's mistreatment of them when they themselves support those who wish to destroy Israel.

But i'm also going to argue here that simply because you call a place home does not grant you the right to live freely amongst those that wish to do evil to others and not be in the crosshairs of their conflict. You should flee from them or risk taking part in their destruction.

Don't agree with your government"s genocidal ideology? Then flee from them. Run for the hills and don't look back.

Im not saying that like its easy to pick up your family and leave everything. But its not any easier living in desolation. 

Take your pick.

If your friends come to destroy me and fail, I will respond in kind with the intention of doing exactly what they intended to do to me. It's your choice to stick around.

[Belsnickel]

(02-13-2024, 08:36 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: But I feel like we agree. At least partially.

Sure, it could be fewer or it could be more. My point was not to quantify anything here. My point was to express that those who have supported or continue to support Hamas cannot complain about Israel's mistreatment of them when they themselves support those who wish to destroy Israel.

But i'm also going to argue here that simply because you call a place home does not grant you the right to live freely amongst those that wish to do evil to others and not be in the crosshairs of their conflict. You should flee from them or risk taking part in their destruction.

Don't agree with your government"s genocidal ideology? Then flee from them. Run for the hills and don't look back.

Im not saying that like its easy to pick up your family and leave everything. But its not any easier living in desolation. 

Take your pick.

If your friends come to destroy me and fail, I will respond in kind with the intention of doing exactly what they intended to do to me. It's your choice to stick around.

I think you severely underestimate the limitations put on the people in Gaza. They have nowhere they can go. They do not have weapons to fight their oppressive regime. They are literally walled in on all sides by land and their ports are controlled by heavy handed regimes. They are far from "living freely."