More Supporting Evidence

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(02-23-2024, 08:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, let it go, Dill. When he replies to my posts like this he is just yelling into the void as far as I am concerned. He is the sole inhabitant of my ignore list because of his consistent detachment from reality. So it's just best to leave his responses to me without a reply so that he thinks he engaged in some repartee rather than the illogical linguistic diarrhea he typically spews and continue to let him live in a fantasy land of his own making.

Since he's stated that he's retired and living in Florida, I just assume that in every thread that he starts . . . he's old and confused, thinking that he's using the BengalsBoard.com version of google.

''I just type up stuff that I don't understand into this here forum, and some nice, and some not so nice, people at BengalsBoardGoogle explain it all to me.''

[hollodero]

(02-23-2024, 10:16 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: So Hillary launders disinformation from Russian agents....resulting in a bogus 2.5+ year investigation of Trump.  Another guy does the same, this time to Biden, and instead of investigating Biden they charge the informant with a crime?  

I'm not following your attempt to make a distinction with a difference, other than the obvious.

But, hey, that pee tape was neither a "lie" nor debunked, there was just no evidence.  TOTALLY different!

It bears repeating time and again. The Trump investigation was not started by, nor was a result of the Steele dossier. How this gets repeated time and again several years after the fact still is baffling.

[Dill]

(02-23-2024, 10:16 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: So Hillary launders disinformation from Russian agents....resulting in a bogus 2.5+ year investigation of Trump.  Another guy does the same, this time to Biden, and instead of investigating Biden they charge the informant with a crime?  

I'm not following your attempt to make a distinction with a difference, other than the obvious.

But, hey, that pee tape was neither a "lie" nor debunked, there was just no evidence.  TOTALLY different!

You are illustrating here an important form of disinformation in operation--the false equivalence.

Hollo addressed one point of rebuttal.  I'll address a few more:

1. "Instead" of investigating Biden ?!@!?     https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/57

2. "Another guy" did not lie to the FBI. He collected a dossier of raw intel to be vetted, not considered final product. An editor at Buzzfeed
got hold of it and decided to publish it. 

3. When Durham and company sent one of Steele's sources and a Clinton campaign lawyer to trial for "lying to the FBI," they were acquitted in separate jury trials. (In court, your version of the Steele Dossier died as quickly as Republicans' 62 lawsuits alleging election fraud.) 

4. The Dossier fell into FBI hands at a time when a foreign diplomat had clued the FBI to the Trump campaign's Russia connections, triggering an investigation leading to 33 indictments of individuals and three business firms. No one in the FBI supposed the Dossier could "prove" anything, but they could not help noticing that its finding of Trump campaign connections to Russia proved prescient. Five Trump Campaign officials received felony convictions. So yes: "Russia Russia Russia!" The Dossier was misused at one point by FBI Agents to get a continuance of surveillance of Carter Page. That was spun into "the 'debunked' Clinton-paid-for Dossier Triggered a fake investigation but Trump was acquitted on all accounts. Witch Hunt!"

Your response has me curious about your vetting process--not only what you are reading and how, but also what you are NOT reading.

I'm also curious to see whether you, like Luvnit, will keep popping up every two weeks referring to how "Russia Russia Russia" was triggered by the "debunked" Steele Dossier, and I'm wondering how you'll weigh in on other false equivalences--Biden stole top secret documents too, right? And Eric Holder "weaponized" Obama's DOJ when he called himself Obama's "wingman"! How does that differ from Trump's efforts to secure DOJ/DOD compliance in the election fraud lie? 

[Arturo Bandini]

They are so bad at this ... Mediocrity as a trademark.

https://newrepublic.com/post/179302/one-trumps-election-fraud-lawyers-just-got-caught-big-lie

[NATI BENGALS]

Looking at you GOP base…..

https://www.newsweek.com/republican-infected-russian-propaganda-michael-mccaul-ukraine-aid-package-1886742

“"I think Russian propaganda has made its way into the United States, unfortunately, and it's infected a good chunk of my party's base," House Foreign Affairs Committee chair and Texas Republican, Michael McCaul, told Puck News.“

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-24-2024, 08:30 PM)hollodero Wrote: It bears repeating time and again. The Trump investigation was not started by, nor was a result of the Steele dossier. How this gets repeated time and again several years after the fact still is baffling.

It was a cog in the wheel.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-07-2024, 02:21 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Looking at you GOP base…..

https://www.newsweek.com/republican-infected-russian-propaganda-michael-mccaul-ukraine-aid-package-1886742

“"I think Russian propaganda has made its way into the United States, unfortunately, and it's infected a good chunk of my party's base," House Foreign Affairs Committee chair and Texas Republican, Michael McCaul, told Puck News.“

Is there a dollar limit for you on how much we give Ukraine?  Do they get a blank check in perpetuity?  If not, than what's your cut off number?  

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-07-2024, 04:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is there a dollar limit for you on how much we give Ukraine?  Do they get a blank check in perpetuity?  If not, than what's your cut off number?  

It's too hard to quantify in dollars. I'd rather the cost be American lives. Something that might make those in agreement with Marjorie Taylor Green open their eyes.

What's the number of American lives you are ok with losing to defend our allies in Europe from a mad man trying to expand his empire?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-07-2024, 10:13 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: It's too hard to quantify in dollars. I'd rather the cost be American lives. Something that might make those in agreement with Marjorie Taylor Green open their eyes.

What's the number of American lives you are ok with losing to defend our allies in Europe from a mad man trying to expand his empire?

No, sorry.  It doesn't work that way.  The question being asked is, is there a dollar value at which point you'd extend Ukraine no more money?  A trillion dollars, two trillion?  Give us a number.  Trying to change the subject isn't an answer.  After you address that point, I would love to hear the rationale behind claiming that US lives would be lost fighting Russia.  

[*pally*]

(04-07-2024, 04:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is there a dollar limit for you on how much we give Ukraine?  Do they get a blank check in perpetuity?  If not, than what's your cut off number?  

You changed the topic of the post. The post was about a prominent Congressional Republican saying that many of his Republican colleagues have not only fallen for Russian propaganda but have enabled its spread by using it on th floors of Congress.

Their inability to use critical thinking skills is what is contributing to the length and cost of Ukraine’s defense

Where do YOU draw the line? When Putin has overrun Ukraine? The Baltics? Poland? What countries are “important” enough to you to protect and which should be the sacrificial lambs to appease Putin’s expansion goals?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-08-2024, 07:58 AM)pally Wrote: You changed the topic of the post.  The post was about a prominent Congressional Republican saying that many of his Republican colleagues have not only fallen for Russian propaganda but have enabled its spread by using it on th floors of Congress.

Yes, and how is that manifesting?  In the refusal to give Ukraine more money.  Hence my bringing up money, as it is very germane to the discussion at hand.

Quote:Their inability to use critical thinking skills is what is contributing to the length and cost of Ukraine’s defense

In the opinion of the accuser, yes.  How is that manifesting?  By refusing to give Ukraine more money. 

Quote:Where do YOU draw the line? When Putin has overrun Ukraine? The Baltics?   Poland?  What countries are “important” enough to you to protect and which should be the sacrificial lambs to appease Putin’s expansion goals?

I will happily answer that question after you answer mine.  Is their a dollar amount at which you'd say no more money for Ukraine.  A trillion dollars, two, three?

[*pally*]

You're copping out.

The US Republican caucus is being controlled by Russian propaganda. One of their own members admitted it. They are letting Vladimir Putin control American policy. The actual dollar amount at this moment is irrelevant. Maybe if they hadn't been in Putin's pocket they would have authorized sufficient aid to end this.

But if they are willing to believe Russia's propaganda what else will they fall for? We already know they are either extremely gullible or so power-crazed they act like they believe every Trump lie.

They are not acting in the best interest of the United States or the Amerian public. They are working for a future Putin-Trump oligarchy totalitarian government.

let's see what else they are up to

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/08/russia-propaganda-us-ukraine/

https://wapo.st/3PSCYuQ

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-08-2024, 12:33 PM)pally Wrote: You're copping out.

No, I'm actually asking questions and getting no answers.

Quote:The US Republican caucus is being controlled by Russian propaganda. One of their own members admitted it.  They are letting Vladimir Putin control American policy.  The actual dollar amount at this moment is irrelevant.  Maybe if they hadn't been in Putin's pocket they would have authorized sufficient aid to end this.  

How?  What propaganda?  The article literally only states that "Russian propaganda" has "infected a good chunk of my party's base".  What propaganda?  How has it infected them?  What actions are being taken, or not taken, due to this supposed propaganda?

Quote:But if they are willing to believe Russia's propaganda what else will they fall for?

 
Again, what propaganda?

Quote:We already know they are either extremely gullible or so power-crazed they act like they believe every Trump lie.

What a fair and balanced take.  No bias to be found here at all

Quote:They are not acting in the best interest of the United States or the Amerian public.  They are working for a future Putin-Trump oligarchy totalitarian government.

How?

Quote:let's see what else they are up to

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/04/08/russia-propaganda-us-ukraine/

https://wapo.st/3PSCYuQ

Yes, rather standard.  We do the exact same thing.  So, let's try this again.  Is there a dollar value at which point you'd say no more aid to Ukraine?  If so, how much?  

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-08-2024, 01:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, I'm actually asking questions and getting no answers.



How?  What propaganda?  The article literally only states that "Russian propaganda" has "infected a good chunk of my party's base".  What propaganda?  How has it infected them?  What actions are being taken, or not taken, due to this supposed propaganda?


 
Again, what propaganda?



What a fair and balanced take.  No bias to be found here at all



How?


Yes, rather standard.  We do the exact same thing.  So, let's try this again.  Is there a dollar value at which point you'd say no more aid to Ukraine?  If so, how much?  

None of us peons can really answer your specific question, we don't have any data we need. They do need help and there's more than one way to help than just pulling more money out of our azzes. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-08-2024, 02:09 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: None of us peons can really answer your specific question, we don't have any data we need. They do need help and there's more than one way to help than just pulling more money out of our azzes. 

It's not necessary to have the data, but I'll proceed regardless.  Let's assume that pretty much anyone would respond that, yes, there is a dollar amount past which we should not go in regard to funding Ukraine.  I would hope that's a safe assumption.  Establishing that, it can be said that having a dollar value in mind does not make one a Putin asset or having fallen prey to propaganda.  Hence, a GOP member of Congress can have issues with the funding amount that have absolutely nothing to do with being a Putin crony or anything other than having an issue with the amount.

This whole thread is dedicated to the absurd premise that the entire GOP is in bed with the Russians, with zero proof of this beyond not wanting to write endless checks to Ukraine.  I believe we should continue to aid Ukraine, it would be horrifically tragic for that nation to fall under Russia's control again.  They suffered terribly under the yoke of the USSR.  But I will not condemn a person who thinks we've given them enough as a Putin stooge or a propaganda victim simply for having that opinion.

Honestly, for all the talk of MAGA group mentality I see very similar behavior in this thread.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-08-2024, 03:41 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's not necessary to have the data, but I'll proceed regardless.  Let's assume that pretty much anyone would respond that, yes, there is a dollar amount past which we should not go in regard to funding Ukraine.  I would hope that's a safe assumption.  Establishing that, it can be said that having a dollar value in mind does not make one a Putin asset or having fallen prey to propaganda.  Hence, a GOP member of Congress can have issues with the funding amount that have absolutely nothing to do with being a Putin crony or anything other than having an issue with the amount.

This whole thread is dedicated to the absurd premise that the entire GOP is in bed with the Russians, with zero proof of this beyond not wanting to write endless checks to Ukraine.  I believe we should continue to aid Ukraine, it would be horrifically tragic for that nation to fall under Russia's control again.  They suffered terribly under the yoke of the USSR.  But I will not condemn a person who thinks we've given them enough as a Putin stooge or a propaganda victim simply for having that opinion.

Honestly, for all the talk of MAGA group mentality I see very similar behavior in this thread.

I have a hard time putting a monetary value on something I consider good vs evil.

If I just paid five more dollars would the murdering rapists who tortured those people have not continued murdering and raping and torturing?

Maybe if I knew what our cut off was when we were fighting the nazis. The communists. The Islamic extremists. If I knew what our monetary limit for fighting evil in those scenarios was.. maybe I could give you the answer you were looking for?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-09-2024, 12:35 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I have a hard time putting a monetary value on something I consider good vs evil.

Do you?  Would you fund the war if it made gas cost $50 a gallon?  How about food being 500% more expensive?  It's easy to dismiss the cost when you don't personally pay the price, at least directly.  Not saying fund Ukraine or not here, just making a point.,

Quote:If I just paid five more dollars would the murdering rapists who tortured those people have not continued murdering and raping and torturing?

You talking about Hamas?  

Quote:Maybe if I knew what our cut off was when we were fighting the nazis. The communists. The Islamic extremists. If I knew what our monetary limit for fighting evil in those scenarios was.. maybe I could give you the answer you were looking for?

Interesting that you put Islamic extremists in there, because a lot of people here have been advocating for negotiating with exactly that, yet I've not seen a single post from you in those threads advocating otherwise.  Like I said, interesting.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-09-2024, 02:01 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Do you?  Would you fund the war if it made gas cost $50 a gallon?  How about food being 500% more expensive?  It's easy to dismiss the cost when you don't personally pay the price, at least directly.  Not saying fund Ukraine or not here, just making a point.,



You talking about Hamas?  


Interesting that you put Islamic extremists in there, because a lot of people here have been advocating for negotiating with exactly that, yet I've not seen a single post from you in those threads advocating otherwise.  Like I said, interesting.

When the outcome is bad guys win and expand their empire and global power, and they are our enemy routinely interfering in our elections and hacking, yes. I have always felt we are the good guys. That whole evil prevails when good men do nothing really fits the bill here imo.

No, I was talking about the early days of the war in Ukraine before the mad man killed his pal who ran the wagner mercenaries. I don't have much faith the convicts recruited out of prison to fight for russia are treating Ukrainians any better.

That was the convenient way for me to incorporate the bottomless  barrel of money that was the Iraq and Afghanistan war. I've tried to stay out of that religious war thread/s. If you don't have anything nice to say...

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Wasn't stopping Russia the entire reason behind expanding the military budget in the first place?

[Dill]

(04-09-2024, 02:20 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: When the outcome is bad guys win and expand their empire and global power, and they are our enemy routinely interfering in our elections and hacking, yes. I have always felt we are the good guys. That whole evil prevails when good men do nothing really fits the bill here imo.

(04-09-2024, 04:52 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Wasn't stopping Russia the entire reason behind expanding the military budget in the first place?

These are the salient points--The US has a NATIONAL INTEREST in stopping the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The issue is not about Ukrainian suffering in WWII or since. It's about stopping a nuclear-backed dictatorship seeking to undermine security in both Europe and the US. 

The problem is not the WHOLE Republican party, just the more Trump-beholden members. Otherwise, your instincts are good on this one, Nati. 

So if anyone can set a dollar amount limit on aid to Ukraine without being a Putin crony, at least in principle, the question is, 

Why do Trump Congressmen increasingly set that amount closer to what Donald's friend Putin wants?  

Characterizing the Ukraine war as between NATO and Russia is a pretty direct appropriation of Russian propaganda, as those GOP members closest to 
Trump --and only they--are increasingly doing, and it is creating a division in the Republican party--enough to slow aid to Ukraine, and to stop it if Trump is elected. 

Thus accomplishing one of Putin's goals--to lower the dollar amount GOP Congressmen are willing to spend on Ukraine. 

Assertions on the order of "I'd hope everyone has a dollar amount; no biggie" just nullify the security issue, render it invisible.

New Litmus test rises in GOP Primaries: Ukraine Aid
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/new-litmus-test-rises-gop-primaries-ukraine-aid-rcna146039
How stalled U.S. aid for Ukraine exemplifies GOP’s softening stance on Russia
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-stalled-u-s-aid-for-ukraine-exemplifies-gops-softening-stance-on-russia
...that the Russian president cannot be stopped so there’s no point in using American taxpayer dollars against him — marks a new stage in the Republican Party’s growing acceptance of Russian expansionism in the age of Donald Trump.

The GOP has been softening its stance on Russia ever since Trump won the 2016 election following Russian hacking of his Democratic opponents. There are several reasons for the shift. Among them, Putin is holding himself out as an international champion of conservative Christian values and the GOP is growing increasingly skeptical of overseas entanglements. Then there’s Trump’s personal embrace of the Russian leader.
Now the GOP’s ambivalence on Russia has stalled additional aid to Ukraine at a pivotal time in the war.