(10-09-2017, 10:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]Really? Green screws up on 3 plays so Dalton gets the blame. A TE drops a 20 yard completion (perfect pass) and it is ignored. This is the problem with just using a QBR and not common sense. AD was accurate all day yesterday and under duress from a great defense and injury carved them up. No, it was not above average, it was a great game.
Well, if you are going have fun with the stats I'll help, if the bills defender catches the horrible pass thrown by Andy in the endzone at the end of the game, we probably lose the game.
Note: i am not a Andy hater. He played a great game but come on.
(10-09-2017, 02:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Dalton has always been a good QB, period. Better since 2015 of course, but he's always been good.
Good QB's have bad days. People just need to come to grips with that. You name me any QB in any season, and I'll show you at least a couple bad games. Possibly 3-4 or more depending on the season. There is no QB who is always good, all the time.
I just wish people would accept Dalton as what he is. Not elite (top 5) but very good (top 12ish). Stop redefining his legacy with every throw, every game. If he throws a 50 yard rope on the run, it doesn't make him Aaron Rodgers. If he tosses a few high and has an off game, it doesn't mean he's a scrub. Ever since we drafted this guy, literally everything has been overreaction city. I've never seen a more scrutinized player in my entire life.
That's my stance too. He's somewhere in the 12-16 range of QB's. I say that and people think I'm bashing. I'm not. We could certainly do much worse.
Who would I take over Andy? 14 guys
-Brady
-Alex Smith (11 TD 0 Int this year)
-Rodgers
-Brees
-Carr
-Cousins
-Newton
-Wentz
-Goff
-Stafford
-Dak Prescott
-Winston
-Russell Wilson
-Matt Ryan
-Roethlisberger (had 1 bad game but you'd still take him over Dalton.)
I think he falls into this list somewhere depending on preference. I think I'd take Watson over him...but not Manning and maybe Rivers.
(10-09-2017, 11:25 AM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Andy had a solid game against a very good defense and I praise him for gutting it out through the leg injury, but like all players, there is room for praise and room for critique.
(10-09-2017, 03:13 PM)sandwedge Wrote: [ -> ]So true! Not every pass Brady, Brees or Rodgers throws is on target. Even the great ones have a clunker of a game....
If you take any QB in Dalton's tier (Wilson, Stafford, Newton, etc) and give him the "Andy treatment", I could pick out throws every game that looked awful, games where they were terrible and craft some weak narrative about how they suck. These are all good QB's. It's just that their fans don't hyperventilate every time they're not playing at the peak of their abilities.
(10-09-2017, 03:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]I cannot speak of Andy's arm strength; I can only go by what those paid to assess such things claim.
I will say that the weakest arm in the NFL is most likely the strongest arm any of us have seen in real life. I served with a guy that played at a small school college program. The guy's arm was incredible, he would wow folks with his throws.
Now this was a nobody from nowhere. I'm sure a player such as Andy would amaze layman that witnessed it. I will agree that the ability to throw a long ball is no indicator of arm strength. How much zip can you put on that 10 yard out throwing off your back foot or on the move.
You mean when he uncorks one of these ropes on the run?
He's unleashed several of these over the last 2.5 years. I've even seen you say "wow" in the GD thread for one.
(10-09-2017, 04:10 PM)PDub80 Wrote: [ -> ]Being good every single game time and being a good or great QB do not go hand in hand. I get it that AD is going to have some bad games. All players do.
Andy was horrific the first 2 games of this season and it cost the team 2 wins. Andy has had horrifically... catastrophically... historically bad games. Not every Qb has games that are THAT bad THAT often. Hes been inconsistent with wild swings in performance like this every season he's been in the league with the EXCEPTION of 2015. 2015 is NOT the RULE it's the EXCEPTION. This season and last clearly prove that. He was the iceberg into the Titanic the first 2 games, okay in the 2nd (1 good half, 1 crap half), and great against the Browns and Bills. That's really easy to understand.
First off, Dalton has only had 2 games that were "historically bad". His 2.0 game and the Ravens game this year. To be frank, the Ravens game wasn't even "historically bad". He had a 28.4 rating for that one with 4 INT's. Nothing else since his rookie season has been even close to being "historically bad".
We're taking 2 games in a 101 game career and pretending it happens all the time. It doesn't.
Plus when you look at other QB's stat pages, the truth comes out.
Joe Flacco just had a game where he went 8-18-28-0-2 (12.0 rating). Yes. 28 yards and a 12.0 rating. He also has posted the following ratings:
10.0 (playoffs) - full game with only 34 yards...yet the Ravens won
18.2 (playoffs)
22.2
23.8 (4 INT's)
27.2
37.4
38.2
Lest we forget in that Texans game even with epically bad blocking and Zampese's goofy scheme problems we still missed winning courtesy of one bonehead play by Tyler Eifert (where he stepped out of bounds despite no defender being in his area) which cost us the winning TD.
(10-09-2017, 06:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]If you take any QB in Dalton's tier (Wilson, Stafford, Newton, etc) and give him the "Andy treatment", I could pick out throws every game that looked awful, games where they were terrible and craft some weak narrative about how they suck. These are all good QB's. It's just that their fans don't hyperventilate every time they're not playing at the peak of their abilities.
You mean when he uncorks one of these ropes on the run?
He's unleashed several of these over the last 2.5 years. I've even seen you say "wow" in the GD thread for one.
First off, Dalton has only had 2 games that were "historically bad". His 2.0 game and the Ravens game this year. To be frank, the Ravens game wasn't even "historically bad". He had a 28.4 rating for that one with 4 INT's. Nothing else since his rookie season has been even close to being "historically bad".
We're taking 2 games in a 101 game career and pretending it happens all the time. It doesn't.
Plus when you look at other QB's stat pages, the truth comes out.
Joe Flacco just had a game where he went 8-18-28-0-2 (12.0 rating). Yes. 28 yards and a 12.0 rating. He also has posted the following ratings:
10.0 (playoffs) - full game with only 34 yards...yet the Ravens won
18.2 (playoffs)
22.2
23.8 (4 INT's)
27.2
37.4
38.2
Dalton has 2 games in his entire career (playoffs included) with a passer rating below 40. Ben and Flacco have a combined 18.
So I'm just not getting why you believe Dalton has all these "historically bad" games, and has them more often than others.
Shake why can’t you let the Dalton thing go? I get the fact you hav3 every right to start as many Dalton threads that you want but you are not going to convert anyone who believes otherwise. I also don’t really know your opinion of where he ranks but maybe I missed it. You seem to reference a lot of exceptional qbs and I’m not sure if you believe or think Andy is on their level or would be if Marvin wasn’t holding him back.
You do your thing though. He is like a 15 rank which is fine with a running game, solid D and good coaching
(10-09-2017, 10:27 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]Dalton is an above average QB at his best. He'll have 2-3 really good games. 2-3 really bad games. And a bunch of average to above average games.
This game fits in the above average category.
Again, not much of a rushing attack, not much of an offensive line, his star WR has THREE TURNOVERS, and he comes back and beats the #1 defense in the NFL. Yep, above average... I guess we will see when the season is over.
Scratch that, if you haven't seen enough over the past six years to say any more than "at his best, he is above average", I am wasting my time (and yours).
(10-09-2017, 06:56 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: [ -> ]Shake why can’t you let the Dalton thing go? I get the fact you hav3 every right to start as many Dalton threads that you want but you are not going to convert anyone who believes otherwise. I also don’t really know your opinion of where he ranks but maybe I missed it. You seem to reference a lot of exceptional qbs and I’m not sure if you believe or think Andy is on their level or would be if Marvin wasn’t holding him back.
You do your thing though. He is like a 15 rank which is fine with a running game, solid D and good coaching
He is like a Top 10 QB over the past six years with no semblance of a running game, his fourth offensive coordinator, a good defense, and....good coaching???? Well, all I know is when he had a solid offensive line and Hue as the OC, he was in the running for NFL MVP when he went down with an injury.
I think Shake and I can't let "the Dalton thing go" because it pisses me off that everyone takes a massive dump on the guy when his entire team sucks but they never give him any credit when he plays a great game against the #1 defense in the NFL in poor conditions that puts this team back where I thought it would be before the season: in position to win the AFC North.
He's doing this with a JV offensive line, not much of a running game (I'd bet bottom five in the league, at least in terms of YPR), an OC that was a turd bucket and now he's running with the former QB coach as OC, and with Eifert and their first pick in the draft out injured.
(10-09-2017, 07:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]He is like a Top 10 QB over the past six years with no semblance of a running game, his fourth offensive coordinator, a good defense, and....good coaching???? Well, all I know is when he had a solid offensive line and Hue as the OC, he was in the running for NFL MVP when he went down with an injury.
I think Shake and I can't let "the Dalton thing go" because it pisses me off that everyone takes a massive dump on the guy when his entire team sucks but they never give him any credit when he plays a great game against the #1 defense in the NFL in poor conditions that puts this team back where I thought it would be before the season: in position to win the AFC North.
He's doing this with a JV offensive line, not much of a running game (I'd bet bottom five in the league, at least in terms of YPR), an OC that was a turd bucket and now he's running with the former QB coach as OC, and with Eifert and their first pick in the draft out injured.
Amen! I would love to read something about this team other than how much better they would be if a certain QB wasn't their QB or how great AJ without a certain QB. There is even an article on NFL.com about 36 takeaways from yesterday in each game and the writer just shits all over Dalton. Dalton isn't perfect but to have everything he does scrutinized by people who are totally clueless to what is actually happening, is beyond me.
(10-09-2017, 04:33 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: [ -> ]Well, if you are going have fun with the stats I'll help, if the bills defender catches the horrible pass thrown by Andy in the endzone at the end of the game, we probably lose the game.
Note: i am not a Andy hater. He played a great game but come on.
This happens weekly in almost every NFL game so why just point out AD had a bad throw or 2 of his 36 passes.
(10-09-2017, 07:48 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]This happens weekly in almost every NFL game so why just point out AD had a bad throw or 2 of his 36 passes.
Because it is at the point the throw was made, up by 1 point, in scoring position with just over two minutes left in the game, and with the game on the line he blindly tossed that ball up there without care or verification of an open receiver!!!
It is an utterly asinine play, a smart QB takes a sack, or throws a ball away in that situation because at worst case you need the three points! It is proof he has no game awareness whatsoever. That ball should of been picked, and imagine this board if it was, they got the ball on the 20, and drove for the game winning FG.
Its all the reason he is 0-For in the playoffs.
Andy is a good, but not great QB that will never win the big trophy. I cannot understand why the homers love him so? I do not hate him, I think he is a great guy, and a good QB, but I want my team to win something for real, not just a regular season record with more wins than losses!!! (This may be as much on Marvin, staff, and ownership)
(10-09-2017, 06:56 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: [ -> ]Shake why can’t you let the Dalton thing go? I get the fact you hav3 every right to start as many Dalton threads that you want but you are not going to convert anyone who believes otherwise. I also don’t really know your opinion of where he ranks but maybe I missed it. You seem to reference a lot of exceptional qbs and I’m not sure if you believe or think Andy is on their level or would be if Marvin wasn’t holding him back.
You do your thing though. He is like a 15 rank which is fine with a running game, solid D and good coaching
I "don't let it go" because most of the narratives don't match reality. Btw, I didn't create this thread and I've only created 4 Dalton threads all year.
Now, maybe next time you quote a post you should actually address the points in it?
To the bolded: In the post you quoted, I compared Dalton to the other QBs in his division. Whether they are better than Andy or not is subjective and irrelevant to the point. Pdub stated that Dalton has historically bad games and has them more often than others. You follow? Ok. So I chose to take a look at the other AFCN QB's and see how many horrible games they've had. They've both had way more.
So that proves that Pdub's statement is bunk. Whether or not you believe Ben and Flacco are better QB's is irrelevant. If they're better QB's it only further proves my point that all QB's have terrible games. Get it? Sorry to be rude, but you're not exactly being friendly yourself, and not only did you ignore the point of my post that you quoted, you're also trying to create a a pretty bad strawman with it.
(10-09-2017, 08:29 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, so maybe I was a week premature in my "Dalton deserves more credit" thread.
A lot of folks slammed him and me by saying that it shouldn't count for anything because he did it against the Browns and he lost to the Packers so that is all that mattered.
Dalton might have been a bit high on one of those INTs, but the other was 100% Green. He hit Carter for a wide open big play that Carter dropped. If you add those as receptions, Dalton would have been near 400 yards passing. He did this against the #1 ranked defense in the NFL.
He got a cheap shot from a former teammate (Hope that asshole gets fined) and he rolled his ankle in another play, but he hobbled through it and won the game.
Mixon is starting to find his groove, and some key weapons (Ross, for one) should be back for the next game. The rotational offensive line, though somewhat curious, seems to be working. That last drive in the fourth quarter was awesome. Something that we usually went in to a shell and gave the ball back after three unsuccessful run plays. The defense is amazing. I said they might not give up more than 20 points in a game the rest of the year and they are showing the league that all they were missing was a pass rush.
Piggy had a glorious 5 INT day and they got hammered by Jax. So, what I had said could happen with a loss to the Chiefs has already happened. At the very worst, the Bengals will be facing them with a 2-3 record and the steelers would be 4-2, with a potential to be 3-3 after playing the Chiefs.
The season wasn't over. It wasn't an ideal start, but they are right back in the thick of it.
Are there really any Dalton haters?
I know people were questioning him after that opening game with 0 TDs and 4 INTs and the following week of 0 TDs by the offense. Both home games where stats people had to go back decades to find a worst start by a team opening with two games at home. But opening with two games at home and just blowing chunks all over the field really put the fans off and like or not Dalton was at the center of that since it was the offense that was so horrible.
But is questioning if Dalton is the right guy the same as hating him? I don't think it is.
I never thought Bernard should have been the starting RB and I don't like it when they have him run it between tackles. But I don't hate him. I just wish he'd be used more along the lines of his skills.
I didn't and still don't like the Ross pick at #9, but I don't blame Ross for that. I hope he proves to be a reliable, healthy player who lives up to his draft position. But not liking him being picked at #9 doesn't mean I hate him.
(10-09-2017, 07:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]He is like a Top 10 QB over the past six years with no semblance of a running game, his fourth offensive coordinator, a good defense, and....good coaching???? Well, all I know is when he had a solid offensive line and Hue as the OC, he was in the running for NFL MVP when he went down with an injury.
I think Shake and I can't let "the Dalton thing go" because it pisses me off that everyone takes a massive dump on the guy when his entire team sucks but they never give him any credit when he plays a great game against the #1 defense in the NFL in poor conditions that puts this team back where I thought it would be before the season: in position to win the AFC North.
He's doing this with a JV offensive line, not much of a running game (I'd bet bottom five in the league, at least in terms of YPR), an OC that was a turd bucket and now he's running with the former QB coach as OC, and with Eifert and their first pick in the draft out injured.
I bet a lot of Packers fans said the same things about Don Majkowski or Browns fans about Derek Anderson or Steelers fans about Tommy Maddox or Panthers fans about Steve Beurlein. I do think Andy is a very respectable quarterback but a perennial MVP he isn’t. He was having a great year but that was then. I do think he gets too much shit but that’s the life of a qb and a guy who has never won in the playoffs. That’s reality
(10-09-2017, 08:10 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]I "don't let it go" because most of the narratives don't match reality. Btw, I didn't create this thread and I've only created 4 Dalton threads all year.
Now, maybe next time you quote a post you should actually address the points in it?
To the bolded: In the post you quoted, I compared Dalton to the other QBs in his division. Whether they are better than Andy or not is subjective and irrelevant to the point. Pdub stated that Dalton has historically bad games and has them more often than others. You follow? Ok. So I chose to take a look at the other AFCN QB's and see how many horrible games they've had. They've both had way more.
So that proves that Pdub's statement is bunk. Whether or not you believe Ben and Flacco are better QB's is irrelevant. If they're better QB's it only further proves my point that all QB's have terrible games. Get it? Sorry to be rude, but you're not exactly being friendly yourself, and not only did you ignore the point of my post that you quoted, you're also trying to create a a pretty bad strawman with it.
I get your point Shake and maybe I didn’t address the narrative but did you ever consider those qbs get more slack than Andy because they have proven they can the big games on the biggest stage? I think Flacco is shit and overrated as hell. It despises me that media has such a love affair with him but he did have a plYoff run where he carried them. I 5hink it was a fluke but he did it. Andy’s criticism is all directly related to playoffs. Fans and media. It’s unfortunate but reality
(10-09-2017, 08:27 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: [ -> ]I get your point Shake and maybe I didn’t address the narrative but did you ever consider those qbs get more slack than Andy because they have proven they can the big games on the biggest stage? I think Flacco is shit and overrated as hell. It despises me that media has such a love affair with him but he did have a plYoff run where he carried them. I 5hink it was a fluke but he did it. Andy’s criticism is all directly related to playoffs. Fans and media. It’s unfortunate but reality
Dean I'm fine with Andy taking criticism for not winning playoff games. I disagree on the reason, but I at least get the frustration there.
You're missing the point of my post though, which was only addressing Pdub's claim about Andy having historically bad games and having them more often than other QB's.
That's literally the only point to my post. Not whether Flacco is overrated, or if Ben is better than Dalton (he is).
(10-09-2017, 08:08 PM)ShowMeUrTDs Wrote: [ -> ]Because it is at the point the throw was made, up by 1 point, in scoring position with just over two minutes left in the game, and with the game on the line he blindly tossed that ball up there without care or verification of an open receiver!!!
It is an utterly asinine play, a smart QB takes a sack, or throws a ball away in that situation because at worst case you need the three points! It is proof he has no game awareness whatsoever. That ball should of been picked, and imagine this board if it was, they got the ball on the 20, and drove for the game winning FG.
Its all the reason he is 0-For in the playoffs.
Andy is a good, but not great QB that will never win the big trophy. I cannot understand why the homers love him so? I do not hate him, I think he is a great guy, and a good QB, but I want my team to win something for real, not just a regular season record with more wins than losses!!! (This may be as much on Marvin, staff, and ownership)
Curt Warner is in the Hall of Fame. He threw a pick 6 on the goal line to LB James. It cost them the Super bowl. Even the best make bad throws dude and CB's make great plays too.. But I guess you never made a make in your lifetime and why so critical of those who have.
(10-09-2017, 08:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Dean I'm fine with Andy taking criticism for not winning playoff games. I disagree on the reason, but I at least get the frustration there.
You're missing the point of my post though, which was only addressing Pdub's claim about Andy having historically bad games and having them more often than other QB's.
That's literally the only point to my post. Not whether Flacco is overrated, or if Ben is better than Dalton (he is).
To your point he is unfairly criticized and will get more venom and unfairness his way. I agree. I’m guilty at times and I don’t dislike him as a person or qb. I blame a lot on the philosophy of the front office. I mean who in the hell thinks centers and guards are irrelevant. Andy will always be looked down upon by fans and media till he wins in the playoffs otherwise a bad game in the regular season will be magnified more than the average qb in the league
