Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

Let me ask you all this question: If MB had told ML, I will give you all the resources and complete control to build a winner, do you think ML could coach that team to a SB win?

I am not going to sit here and say Mike Brown is not at fault, but I do not see how these losses can be blamed on him. First, on Mike's offseason decisions:

In regards to Whitworth, I understand the decision. You do not want to be overpaying an aging veteran. You just have to look at some of the decisions the Reds made to understand how that might not be the best idea.

In regards to Zeitler, I also understand the decision. The guy was getting offered to be one of the highest paid guards in the league. We had and will have a lot of other people who need to get paid and a guard is not an optimal position to sink a lot of money into.

It's not like the Bengals did not see this coming either. They spent a 1st and 2nd round draft pick on OL. The picks looked good at the time. Og was a mock draft top 10 pick before tearing his ACL. The fact that both are busts should speak to the bad insights of either the scouts or PA (who am I kidding, it has to be PA).

I think Dre signing was a must last offseason. We didn't know how WJIII would turn out, Dennard looked like a bust last season, and Pacman was aging.

For the draft, I understood the philosophy of the picks. I can't speak for any opportunities to trade down, but given where we were in the draft, I liked the pick. There were no OL prospects worthy of that pick and we needed speed. Obviously, now, I wish we could have found a 1st round talent who could actually get on the field at some point. But for the rest of draft, I think the Bengals did really well this past year. Mixon is our RB of the future and Willis and Lawson have been great additions to an aging, slow defense. I'd like to have some younger OL picks too, but I am not sure who was available and whatnot.

Overall, I think a lot of the Mike Brown decisions this past offseason and other RECENT offseasons have been pretty justified for where we are. The 1st round draft picks in recent years who cannot stay healthy is starting to open holes on the team, but otherwise, I think most decisions are justified.

I believe the best way to improve the team is to change our coaching staff. Marvin is done. Being outcoached every week has cost this team wins, playoff aspirations, and possibly a championship. How many times in this Marvin era have we looked absolutely unprepared in big games? How many times have we stuck to the same gameplan while the other team adjusts after halftime? How many times do we have to see the dumbfounded look on Marvin's face when the other team just rolls us or our players commit a boneheaded play?

I am tired of it. We need a coach who knows how to plan for the big games. We need a coach who can adapt, in-game, to the momentum of the game. We need a coach who can exploit the weaknesses of the other team and roll with the strengths of our own team. My choice for that coach would be Josh McDaniels, but at this point, I'd be willing to bet that any NFL coach would be better at these decisions that Marvin Lewis.

(10-24-2017, 12:12 PM)sandwedge Wrote: [ -> ]Let me ask you all this question: If MB had told ML, I will give you all the resources and complete control to build a winner, do you think ML could coach that team to a SB win?

I don't think ML could beat Pittsburgh with that power.....let alone a SB win.

(10-23-2017, 11:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]If the Bengals were to suddenly change their ways, and offer complete control to a General Manager from outside the organization, how long do you think the line of applicants would be?

I mean, think about it.  An individual would have the opportunity to take this franchise, and direct it the way it should be done.  An actual GM, without emotional attachment to the finances or the team itself would likely have made moves that resulted in this team being 5-1 or 6-0 right now.  A genuine Football mind running the Football operations.  What a novel concept.

GM is the answer but owner is too stubborn. 

(10-24-2017, 09:29 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Im not sure how anyone could have bought into the hype of this team when looking at the offensive line they brought back this year. People thought John Ross was going to be the cure all of a bad offensive line, didnt happen and wont happen.

The offensive line dictates everything for this offense. Dalton is scared, the offense line is crumbling, and we are struggling to get first downs. Anyone that took off their Bengals bias before the season started could have seen it. It was plain as day.

But there were many of us that pointed out the OL woes. 

Was so mad at Ross being drafted over a much needed trench player that I immediately left the draft party at PBS. 

Not a knock on Ross just was not a big need. 

(10-24-2017, 11:23 AM)Benton Wrote: [ -> ]It's all on goal setting and how you define success.

To me, you play a game to win. You play a league or tournament to win it all. That, to me, is success. We've never had success. 50 years of failing. Those two seasons we made the Super Bowl were the closest thing we've had to a successful season.

I don't think the Brown's view success in the same way. It's their family business, so being successful means keeping the operation profitable, shirt sales up, beer sales up, costs low. They don't run it like a sports franchise, they operate it like a restaurant or a hardware store. Expenses too high? Lower them. Revenue too low? Raise ticket prices or expand marketing. Didn't score a touchdown... well... let's re-stripe the parking lot and maybe fans will be happy with the brighter colors.

Success in this league is about profit. It has little to nothing to do with wins and losses. It's one of the few businesses where someone can become fabulously wealthy by losing. This idea of revenue sharing is at the root of it. From a business standpoint you can't lose if by losing you're still winning. 
Think about that for a minute. The Cleveland Browns are every bit as profitable as the Squeelers with maybe the exceptions of ticket and jersey sales, but the bottom line is that the Browns and Bengals both still have the ability to pay the same amounts of money for player salaries as NE, Pitt, GB, etc.
So ask yourselves just how can anyone be so accidentally stupid as the owners of these two bottom feeders (Browns and Bengals) and still make as much money as the owners of the teams that get championships every few years? The incentive to win championships doesn't actually exist when the ownership is still raking in millions upon millions despite as in the case of the Browns having only one win last year and only 4 wins in the past 3 seasons . The last time they won in double digits was 2007, ten years ago. Out of 160 games in the past 10 seasons they've won 51 while losing 109 and STILL make billions of dollars in revenue. 
Quite simply put there is no incentive to win other than being able to say, Yey. Saying yey doesn't pay the bills.  Their stadium, Firstenergy stadium supposedly cost $283,000,000 to build so out of 272 games the Browns have played since the stadium opened in 1999 they've won a grand total of 87 games and have consistently gotten high draft picks and still can't win. 
Now, you could say that is an accident or really bad coaching or even worse ownership or a combination of those issues OR you could as I'm suggesting come to the conclusion that it's by design so the largest markets and fan bases will consistently win with a few exceptions just to toss the conspiracy theory minded among us off the path of proving that there's collusion going on to maximize league profits. 

Think about this last game. Our defense was supposed to have been one of the best in the league and 3 weeks ago by all accounts the Steelers were in complete disarray . They were absolutely blown out by Jacksonville and suddenly, without any rhyme or reason turn around and became world beaters.. hmmmmm.. Something isn't white in the rice here.
Of course someone will make the argument that Mike Tomlin SURELY must be the greatest head coach and has a magic formula for getting the most out of a team in complete disarray, but I'm simply not buying that story. He's already proven himself to be a stooge dumb enough to blatantly trip a player from the sidelines so his genius prowess doesn't really cut it.
If NE's head coach, Belichick is as great as we're lead to believe then certainly when he was with the Browns they would have won multiple super bowl championships and yet they didn't. Instead he went to NE to become the 'greatest football mind' of a generation. 
What this is all leading up to is the greatest line of BS since the formation of religions to convince people there's an invisible thing in the sky picking winners and losers and of course the winners only win because they believe enough in the invisible thing more than the losers.. Obviously the good people of Boston, Pittsburgh and Green Bay believe more than the godless people of Cleveland and Cincinnati. 
Yeah, I'm not quite buying that one either..
I might suggest that the league has effectively neutered Vontez Burfict. He seemed to have been pretty much a non-factor this past Sunday with the exception of supposedly kicking some guy.. Hey, it's football where kicking is part of the game, eh?

Yeah, no. I'm not buying the narrative of the juggernaut Squeeler miracles. Miracles are planned ahead of time in the NFL. 

(10-24-2017, 12:42 PM)CincyWestside Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think ML could beat Pittsburgh with that power.....let alone a SB win.

the bears did.

(10-24-2017, 11:07 AM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]Toddy Haley, the STEELERS OC?

NO THANKS!  I don't want anyone with ANY ties to the Steelers.

As much as I hate the Steelers, I'd take any of their coaching staff to replace Lewis over any of ours. I want someone who has been on a team that not only wins a lot of regular season games, but has won some playoff games as well.

With that said, Haley was already a HC (in KC, IIRC) and was kinda underwhelming so, no, I don't want Haley as HC either.

I was one who questioned the 3-13 prediction. At the time I couldn't see losing the opening game to the Ravens or the Texans game. Losing at Pittsburgh & Green Bay were predictable. At this point I can't see very many quality wins left if this o-line play doesn't vastly improve.

(10-24-2017, 01:57 PM)RASCAL Wrote: [ -> ]the bears did.

The Bears and the Jaguars are not coached by Marvin Lewis....

(10-24-2017, 12:12 PM)sandwedge Wrote: [ -> ]Let me ask you all this question: If MB had told ML, I will give you all the resources and complete control to build a winner, do you think ML could coach that team to a SB win?

No. We've had some teams under Lewis that were arguably contenders for the Super Bowl. Lewis still coached them to one-and-done in the playoffs.

Lewis is our version of Marty Schottenheimer: good enough to win in the regular season, can't win in the playoffs.

(10-23-2017, 09:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: [ -> ]Dennard missed a handful of tackles and got beat bad on the TD by Brown. 

He had a meh day

Pittsburgh had a text book game on offense. 

The offensive line was controlling thr line of scrimmage and getting blocks on the second level. Bell was sprung into the secondary alot where he just punished the Bengals defensive backs. Bell had the secondary flat footed and Ben picked them apart with huge holes in the zone on playaction.

In the second half they did exactly what a team needs to do to close a football game. Control the time of possession by running the football while collecting points even if they are field goals.

It was the entire defensive unit that had a bad game...besides Will Jackson III AB who? Lol

Edit: Pittsburghs TEs and FB also had a really great game.

(10-24-2017, 03:18 PM)CincyWestside Wrote: [ -> ]The Bears and the Jaguars are not coached by Marvin Lewis....

no shit Sherlock. It was about this shitty teams performance, and the Bears were 0-3 and beat the stoolers!

(10-24-2017, 12:41 PM)CincyWestside Wrote: [ -> ]I am not going to sit here and say Mike Brown is not at fault, but I do not see how these losses can be blamed on him. First, on Mike's offseason decisions:

In regards to Whitworth, I understand the decision. You do not want to be overpaying an aging veteran. You just have to look at some of the decisions the Reds made to understand how that might not be the best idea.

In regards to Zeitler, I also understand the decision. The guy was getting offered to be one of the highest paid guards in the league. We had and will have a lot of other people who need to get paid and a guard is not an optimal position to sink a lot of money into.

It's not like the Bengals did not see this coming either. They spent a 1st and 2nd round draft pick on OL. The picks looked good at the time. Og was a mock draft top 10 pick before tearing his ACL. The fact that both are busts should speak to the bad insights of either the scouts or PA (who am I kidding, it has to be PA).

I think Dre signing was a must last offseason. We didn't know how WJIII would turn out, Dennard looked like a bust last season, and Pacman was aging.

For the draft, I understood the philosophy of the picks. I can't speak for any opportunities to trade down, but given where we were in the draft, I liked the pick. There were no OL prospects worthy of that pick and we needed speed. Obviously, now, I wish we could have found a 1st round talent who could actually get on the field at some point. But for the rest of draft, I think the Bengals did really well this past year. Mixon is our RB of the future and Willis and Lawson have been great additions to an aging, slow defense. I'd like to have some younger OL picks too, but I am not sure who was available and whatnot.

Overall, I think a lot of the Mike Brown decisions this past offseason and other RECENT offseasons have been pretty justified for where we are. The 1st round draft picks in recent years who cannot stay healthy is starting to open holes on the team, but otherwise, I think most decisions are justified.

I believe the best way to improve the team is to change our coaching staff. Marvin is done. Being outcoached every week has cost this team wins, playoff aspirations, and possibly a championship. How many times in this Marvin era have we looked absolutely unprepared in big games? How many times have we stuck to the same gameplan while the other team adjusts after halftime? How many times do we have to see the dumbfounded look on Marvin's face when the other team just rolls us or our players commit a boneheaded play?

I am tired of it. We need a coach who knows how to plan for the big games. We need a coach who can adapt, in-game, to the momentum of the game. We need a coach who can exploit the weaknesses of the other team and roll with the strengths of our own team. My choice for that coach would be Josh McDaniels, but at this point, I'd be willing to bet that any NFL coach would be better at these decisions that Marvin Lewis.

1. The Bengals had the money. They were overpaying Adam Jones who is a nutcase. Cut him and you have 7 million more to spend. Money is irrelevant. They just got cheap. Too cheap. As usual. 

2. They offered an embarrassingly low deal to Zeitler knowing he would decline and walk. You know why Zeitler got so much money?  Because he was on the market. You know why DeCastro etc got less? Because their teams actually made compelling offers and didn't let their guys hit the market. 

Taking these two decisions and trying to explain them away is why Mike Brown does it. Because people will buy the bullshit. 

imo,
I put the majority of the blame on the past bad draft choices....
So far, Ced & Fisher just don't look they can handle the OT spots....
that's bad drafting....
& last yrs rd #5 ick, Elliot was a wasted pick....
OC Bodine never should of been drafted what, 4 years ago....
I hate to say this but....."copy the steelers" they picked Pouncy in rd #1....
get a stud up front & "keep him".....
we shouldn't put a 4th rder {Bodine} out there & expect that to work....he gets pushed back constantly & can't open a hole for our RB's....
we could of picked DeCastro but no....traded down & got an OK Guard....then let him walk....
so our Oline is now weak.....
thanks a lot....
stop making bad picks on draft day....
maybe don't pick {toys} like speedy WR's who are easily injured...."get more beef up front"
sure wish they would of picked the guy I wanted...TE Howard...
SH*T.....!!!
now i'm going to have to watch the Squeelers in the playoffs & they may win another SB....
#$^*&!*$%#@^&?!!!

(10-24-2017, 11:51 AM)PhilHos Wrote: [ -> ]In the grand scheme of things, Brown is to blame, yes. However, Marvin is still in direct control of whether we can win or lose. We have been a talented team for much of Lewis' tenure. Aside from years we were hit hard with the injury bug, a majority of our losses were in games we were simply outcoached. Yes, sometimes players in key positions had bad games and sometimes we ran into a better team (bette rin all aspects), but generally most of our losses were due to some aspect of coaching, whether it is in lack of proper preparation, bad gameplans, bad in-game decisions, etc.

Phil, I get what you're saying, I truly do.  However, as Owner and "GM" of the team, Mike Brown should have clearly recognized that Marvin was never going to Coach this team to the promised land.  I honestly think that Marvin is trying his best, but his best just isn't good enough to get the job done.  Same with Mike Brown operating as "GM", he's just not getting the job done, to much of a conflict of interest with his modus operendi.

(10-24-2017, 07:46 PM)Steve Wrote: [ -> ]imo,
I put the majority of the blame on the past bad draft choices....
So far, Ced & Fisher just don't look they can handle the OT spots....
that's bad drafting....
& last yrs rd #5 ick, Elliot was a wasted pick....
OC Bodine never should of been drafted what, 4 years ago....
I hate to say this but....."copy the steelers" they picked Pouncy in rd #1....
get a stud up front & "keep him".....
we shouldn't put a 4th rder {Bodine} out there & expect that to work....he gets pushed back constantly & can't open a hole for our RB's....
we could of picked DeCastro but no....traded down & got an OK Guard....then let him walk....
so our Oline is now weak.....
thanks a lot....
stop making bad picks on draft day....
maybe don't pick {toys} like speedy WR's who are easily injured...."get more beef up front"
sure wish they would of picked the guy I wanted...TE Howard...
SH*T.....!!!
now i'm going to have to watch the Squeelers in the playoffs & they may win another SB....
#$^*&!*$%#@^&?!!!

Steve, ask yourself a question.  Who is responsible for those draft choices?  Sure, you can finger Duke Tobin, Marvin Lewis, Paul Alexander, etc., but the one who is really to blame is the one who continues to rely on their services.

Btw, your post is kind of hard to read.  Try using standard English.

(10-24-2017, 12:41 PM)CincyWestside Wrote: [ -> ]I believe the best way to improve the team is to change our coaching staff. Marvin is done. Being outcoached every week has cost this team wins, playoff aspirations, and possibly a championship. How many times in this Marvin era have we looked absolutely unprepared in big games? How many times have we stuck to the same gameplan while the other team adjusts after halftime? How many times do we have to see the dumbfounded look on Marvin's face when the other team just rolls us or our players commit a boneheaded play?

I am tired of it. We need a coach who knows how to plan for the big games. We need a coach who can adapt, in-game, to the momentum of the game. We need a coach who can exploit the weaknesses of the other team and roll with the strengths of our own team. My choice for that coach would be Josh McDaniels, but at this point, I'd be willing to bet that any NFL coach would be better at these decisions that Marvin Lewis.

I agree with you 100%, but you have to understand one thing.  Marvin isn't the problem, he's just one of the symptoms.  Until the frugal old man in charge of everything decides that he's not the best option as GM of the organization, nothing will really change, nothing will improve from an organizational standpoint.  As long as the Brown family runs this team like a family business, they will continue to feel like they are doing the "right things", making the "best moves" for the organization.  They need to put control of Football Operations in the hands of an actual Football mind.

(10-24-2017, 11:07 AM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]Toddy Haley, the STEELERS OC?

NO THANKS!  I don't want anyone with ANY ties to the Steelers.

Why? I think we should poach as many of their coaches as possible, thereby both making them worse and us better. 

Or do you believe we're the only team who should have their coordinators and assistant coaches poached when they are winning?

(10-24-2017, 07:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Steve, ask yourself a question.  Who is responsible for those draft choices?  Sure, you can finger Duke Tobin, Marvin Lewis, Paul Alexander, etc., but the one who is really to blame is the one who continues to rely on their services.

Btw, your post is kind of hard to read.  Try using standard English.

if you have trouble reading my post.....
go back to school....

it is in English...