(12-12-2017, 04:37 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching is not the only reason we lose, but I believe it is the biggest.
And I agree with the bolded.. I've said before, the worst thing this management team is guilty of recently is keeping Marv employed. But if they move on from him next month? It will be a big step in the right direction (hopefully, depending on the replacement).
And you can't entirely blame management for losing those players. We aren't the only team to lose players during free agency, it happens to everyone. It sucks, but who's to say any of those players had any real intentions of signing back with us anyway? Maybe management could (should) have thrown more money around in an effort to keep some of them but it may have been all for naught. I don't think Sanu or jones ever had any intentions of coming back. I believe Whitworth wanted a change of scenery as well. We drafted their replacements over the past few drafts and unfortunately, it hasn't worked out. Sucks, but again, it happens. And I can't help but wonder if the young draftees struggles are also related to poor coaching.
I don't see how any coaching staff would have won a playoff game with the roster this season.
The offensive line was terrible. The WR's outside Green are bad. We had no running game most of the year.
Our defense was inconsistent. The secondary was bad against the pass. The LB's outside of Burfict were bad.
No coach is winning a playoff game with that.
The anniversary is coming up...
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(12-12-2017, 05:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see how any coaching staff would have won a playoff game with the roster this season.
The offensive line was terrible. The WR's outside Green are bad. We had no running game most of the year.
Our defense was inconsistent. The secondary was bad against the pass. The LB's outside of Burfict were bad.
No coach is winning a playoff game with that.
True, this is not the most talented roster Marv has ever had. But the way he's lost is still the same: in the second half. It's no secret that Marv thinks in-game adjustments are "journalist jargon", and we've seen evidence of that for several years.
This team, despite its flaws, nearly beat Aaron Rodgers Green Bay packers and Pittsburgh... Twice. However, poor coaching ruined both opportunities (why Mixon never saw the ball in the second half of the first Pittsburgh game, I'll never understand). Those are three coulda shoulda woulda wins right there, pissed away in the second half thanks to a typical Marvin Lewis meltdown. Not Mike Brown.
(12-12-2017, 06:23 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: [ -> ]True, this is not the most talented roster Marv has ever had. But the way he's lost is still the same: in the second half. It's no secret that Marv thinks in-game adjustments are "journalist jargon", and we've seen evidence of that for several years.
This team, despite its flaws, nearly beat Aaron Rodgers Green Bay packers and Pittsburgh... Twice. However, poor coaching ruined both opportunities (why Mixon never saw the ball in the second half of the first Pittsburgh game, I'll never understand). Those are three coulda shoulda woulda wins right there, pissed away in the second half thanks to a typical Marvin Lewis meltdown. Not Mike Brown.
It's funny you blame Marvin for being a poor coach but not Mike Brown. How many owners would give a coach who is 0-7 in the playoffs a chance to try for chance #8?
Bottom line: The organization tolerates mediocrity from the top down.
It's the same reason Bodine has a job...year after year. Because it costs money to replace him and he's signed cheap.
It's why they reportedly offered Zeitler $5.5 million a year after DeCastro signed for $10 million a year.
You don't think it demoralized the players when Zeitler was low-balled AND Whitworth left? Whitworth - the captain who has only played for the Bengals...left?
The same reason Alexander still has a job despite this team not being able to run the ball. They tolerate mediocrity.
When the top levels of an organization tolerate mediocrity...it infiltrates other levels.
Marvin isn't the cause...he's the symptom. And you act like Marvin told the team to shutdown against the Packers and Steelers. A lot of those losses is on the players.
You'll see when we have a new HC.
(12-12-2017, 09:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny you blame Marvin for being a poor coach but not Mike Brown. How many owners would give a coach who is 0-7 in the playoffs a chance to try for chance #8?
Bottom line: The organization tolerates mediocrity from the top down.
It's the same reason Bodine has a job...year after year. Because it costs money to replace him and he's signed cheap.
It's why they reportedly offered Zeitler $5.5 million a year after DeCastro signed for $10 million a year.
You don't think it demoralized the players when Zeitler was low-balled AND Whitworth left? Whitworth - the captain who has only played for the Bengals...left?
The same reason Alexander still has a job despite this team not being able to run the ball. They tolerate mediocrity.
When the top levels of an organization tolerate mediocrity...it infiltrates other levels.
Marvin isn't the cause...he's the symptom. And you act like Marvin told the team to shutdown against the Packers and Steelers. A lot of those losses is on the players.
You'll see when we have a new HC.
Mike Brown has a very long lists of shortcomings and in the end is the person holding the stick that stirs this team, we know that. And I have serious doubts anyone can win here while he's still got the stirring stick.
But having said that:
A boat load of blame lies directly at Marvin Lewis's feet as well !
Mike isn't pulling the plug on the running game in the first quarter. Mike isn't playing not to lose with 3 minutes to go until halftime. Mike isn't trying to sit on 6 point leads in the middle of the 2nd quarter. Mike isn't totally botching timeouts and challenge flags more often than not. Mike is not responsible for Marvin having his arms folded across his chest on sidelines with deer in the headlights look while getting your butt whipped. Mike isn't responsible for never having a plan B. Mike isn't responsible for getting waxed in 2nd half scoring way to regularly. One could go on and on
(12-12-2017, 04:37 PM)Dan Pat5775 Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching is not the only reason we lose, but I believe it is the biggest.
And I agree with the bolded.. I've said before, the worst thing this management team is guilty of recently is keeping Marv employed. But if they move on from him next month? It will be a big step in the right direction (hopefully, depending on the replacement).
And you can't entirely blame management for losing those players. We aren't the only team to lose players during free agency, it happens to everyone. It sucks, but who's to say any of those players had any real intentions of signing back with us anyway? Maybe management could (should) have thrown more money around in an effort to keep some of them but it may have been all for naught. I don't think Sanu or jones ever had any intentions of coming back. I believe Whitworth wanted a change of scenery as well. We drafted their replacements over the past few drafts and unfortunately, it hasn't worked out. Sucks, but again, it happens. And I can't help but wonder if the young draftees struggles are also related to poor coaching.
Darn Right it is! Drafting and coaching them up to play the position for which they were drafted once they are here.
(12-12-2017, 09:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny you blame Marvin for being a poor coach but not Mike Brown. How many owners would give a coach who is 0-7 in the playoffs a chance to try for chance #8?
Bottom line: The organization tolerates mediocrity from the top down.
It's the same reason Bodine has a job...year after year. Because it costs money to replace him and he's signed cheap.
It's why they reportedly offered Zeitler $5.5 million a year after DeCastro signed for $10 million a year.
You don't think it demoralized the players when Zeitler was low-balled AND Whitworth left? Whitworth - the captain who has only played for the Bengals...left?
The same reason Alexander still has a job despite this team not being able to run the ball. They tolerate mediocrity.
When the top levels of an organization tolerate mediocrity...it infiltrates other levels.
Marvin isn't the cause...he's the symptom. And you act like Marvin told the team to shutdown against the Packers and Steelers. A lot of those losses is on the players.
You'll see when we have a new HC.
Once again, I'm not excusing Mike brown. I never have. I wish like hell Mike would have dealt with Marvin and Alexnder years ago and there is no excuse for that. With Mike, I believe it's more about keeping his friends and family happy than embracing mediocrity. He is far too loyal to subpar coaches because they are his buddies outside of the business. He is also in denial, he honestly believed Marvin could get him a super bowl. But I think it's incredibly obvious our struggles on the field are mainly due to coaching. There's been a pattern of choking under Marv for over a decade. After much roster turnover, it's still the same. At some point, it's not a coincidence. The team still falls apart in big games, even with different players.
Stop acting like the 90's have never left. We made the playoffs 5 years in a row, won a few division titles and beat some damn good football teams (at 1:00). We have/had talent. Management is responsible for acquiring that talent. Marvin is responsible for getting the most out of that talent. But he doesn't. Never has. Not when it really counts, anyway. Hard to believe, I know, but for the most part this management team has given him the roster to succeed. But Primetime and playoffs, the lights go on and what happens? Choke artist Marv and bungle football rears its ugly head.
Things are not as dire as you believe. If Mike brings back Marvin after this mess, then yes. Things will be as gloomy as you see them now. But Marv is likely on his way out in 3 short weeks. And maybe Mike will be passing the torch as well. Not much longer until we know for sure.
Provided we make a decent hire, you'll see things improve when we have a new HC. I'm not claiming a super bowl is on the horizon... But a trip back to the playoffs next year? A definite possibility
(12-12-2017, 02:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: [ -> ]Did you know that Merv is 8-23 versus the Steelers as Bengals HC? 
You're just parroting Antares. He was the first to drop that bombshell.
(12-12-2017, 10:23 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: [ -> ]Once again, I'm not excusing Mike brown. I never have. I wish like hell Mike would have dealt with Marvin and Alexnder years ago and there is no excuse for that. With Mike, I believe it's more about keeping his friends and family happy than embracing mediocrity. He is far too loyal to subpar coaches because they are his buddies outside of the business. He is also in denial, he honestly believed Marvin could get him a super bowl. But I think it's incredibly obvious our struggles on the field are mainly due to coaching. There's been a pattern of choking under Marv for over a decade. After much roster turnover, it's still the same. At some point, it's not a coincidence. The team still falls apart in big games, even with different players.
Stop acting like the 90's have never left. We made the playoffs 5 years in a row, won a few division titles and beat some damn good football teams (at 1:00). We have/had talent. Management is responsible for acquiring that talent. Marvin is responsible for getting the most out of that talent. But he doesn't. Never has. Not when it really counts, anyway. Hard to believe, I know, but for the most part this management team has given him the roster to succeed. But Primetime and playoffs, the lights go on and what happens? Choke artist Marv and bungle football rears its ugly head.
Things are not as dire as you believe. If Mike brings back Marvin after this mess, then yes. Things will be as gloomy as you see them now. But Marv is likely on his way out in 3 short weeks. And maybe Mike will be passing the torch as well. Not much longer until we know for sure.
Provided we make a decent hire, you'll see things improve when we have a new HC. I'm not claiming a super bowl is on the horizon... But a trip back to the playoffs next year? A definite possibility
Of course no one rolls out of bed saying they want to be mediocre...but when you keep a coach who is 0-7 in the playoffs...whay is that saying?
Most of our 'talent' was the result of 2 GREAT drafts. Our drafts since then have been average to bad. The past 5 years almost all of our drafts have been below average.
You know teams can get lucky drafting a guy like Atkins. It isn't like they're consistently drafting Pro Bowl players.
The time to fire Lewis was 3 years ago. Now we need 4 new lineman, 2 new LB's, a WR2, a DT next to Atkins, and changes at CB.
It's just like when Lazor took over and people acted like our offense would be great because of a coaching change. The issue wasn't Zampese. It was the personnel.
(12-13-2017, 12:19 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]Of course no one rolls out of bed saying they want to be mediocre...but when you keep a coach who is 0-7 in the playoffs...whay is that saying?
Most of our 'talent' was the result of 2 GREAT drafts. Our drafts since then have been average to bad. The past 5 years almost all of our drafts have been below average.
You know teams can get lucky drafting a guy like Atkins. It isn't like they're consistently drafting Pro Bowl players.
The time to fire Lewis was 3 years ago. Now we need 4 new lineman, 2 new LB's, a WR2, a DT next to Atkins, and changes at CB.
It's just like when Lazor took over and people acted like our offense would be great because of a coaching change. The issue wasn't Zampese. It was the personnel.
Again, Mike keeping Marvin on is saying he is loyal to an initiate amount of faults. Mike firmly believes, despite his obvious deficiencies, that Marvin is capable of winning a championship. Also doesn't hurt that Marv is his buddy. It has more to do with grand delusions than simply "accepting mediocrity" on Mike's part.
Our drafts may not have worked out but they have been universally praised by most experts for several years running now. Again, the drafts are a complete crapshoot and sometimes guys work out, and sometimes they don't. It happens. Rarely does any team consistently draft all pros year in and year out. Our drafts picks have made sense for the most part, drafting for positions of need and selecting players at the right spot and not reaching as much as other teams. But sometimes things don't work out.
Again, I believe a huge reason our draft picks haven't worked out if because our coaching staff has failed to coach them up. Ogbuehi is a big example. He looks nothing like he did in college. You could say his injury has changed him, but his overall technique looks very different. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
The time to fire Marvin was actually 7 years ago, but anyway you're right. The window for our current group of core Bengal players is nearly closed. Wasted by the poor coaching of Marvin Lewis. I wouldn't say it's completely shut yet, but it's mighty close.
We can only hope whoever replaces Marvin can work some magic, and fast. We'll know more soon enough.
(12-12-2017, 02:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]26 teams have at least 5 playoff wins since our last playoff win...which is how many the Bengals have in their ENTIRE 50 YEAR HISTORY!
And we have NONE since modern free agency began in 1992.
Time to change the strategy and sign a few Tier 2 and 3 free agents! Maybe start valuing Center and Guard!
I’m not sure this is a useful metric. As any Bengals fan can tell you, making the playoffs is not something we celebrate, and I doubt teams with playoffs wins celebrate those either. There’s one kind of playoff game win that matters.
I think Marvin could have been more successful with competent ownership elsewhere, he's certainly a hell of a lot better than what we got with Shula, Coslett, LeBeau.
That being said, even if you agree with that premise, it doesn't matter for us because his window to be an effective leader here has closed. It's clear the players no longer buy in. It's a lame duck staff and it's time to move in a different direction. Can we ever be successful with MB running the show? I doubt it. But we can't change that, only time will. And that time is coming soon enough Bengal fans. Let's just hope we get a competent coaching hire who can field a decent team with some of the foundational pieces we have until Mike's grip in the franchise is released and we get some competent ownership.
(12-13-2017, 01:35 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: [ -> ]Again, Mike keeping Marvin on is saying he is loyal to an initiate amount of faults. Mike firmly believes, despite his obvious deficiencies, that Marvin is capable of winning a championship. Also doesn't hurt that Marv is his buddy. It has more to do with grand delusions than simply "accepting mediocrity" on Mike's part.
Our drafts may not have worked out but they have been universally praised by most experts for several years running now. Again, the drafts are a complete crapshoot and sometimes guys work out, and sometimes they don't. It happens. Rarely does any team consistently draft all pros year in and year out. Our drafts picks have made sense for the most part, drafting for positions of need and selecting players at the right spot and not reaching as much as other teams. But sometimes things don't work out.
Again, I believe a huge reason our draft picks haven't worked out if because our coaching staff has failed to coach them up. Ogbuehi is a big example. He looks nothing like he did in college. You could say his injury has changed him, but his overall technique looks very different. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
The time to fire Marvin was actually 7 years ago, but anyway you're right. The window for our current group of core Bengal players is nearly closed. Wasted by the poor coaching of Marvin Lewis. I wouldn't say it's completely shut yet, but it's mighty close.
We can only hope whoever replaces Marvin can work some magic, and fast. We'll know more soon enough.
Loyalty isn't an excuse. When you are in upper management you do what is in the best interest of the company.
While the drafts are a crapshoot...I've posted how small our scouting department is in comparison to the Steelers and Ravens. They've been to a combined 6 Super Bowls since we last won a playoff game.
And scouts matter. The coaches have games during the season and can't be at games. 4 scouts can't be at every college game too. The Bengals rely heavily on workouts to scout...which isn't guys on the field playing football.
But yes...we need whoever replaces Marvin to work magic. They need to immediately have impactful drafts and breathe life into several players who are playing Poorly. I won't say it's impossible...but it's easier to revive a team like the Rams with young talent PLUS they signed and traded for 4 good to really good players. I doubt we take on that kind of payroll here.
I'll also say that IF we had both Whitworth and Zeitler this year...we possibly win 8-9 games as our schedule was really weak.
(12-12-2017, 02:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]26 teams have at least 5 playoff wins since our last playoff win...which is how many the Bengals have in their ENTIRE 50 YEAR HISTORY!
And we have NONE since modern free agency began in 1992.
Time to change the strategy and sign a few Tier 2 and 3 free agents! Maybe start valuing Center and Guard!
I could have sworn I saw this same thread within the past year...
(12-13-2017, 11:11 AM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I could have sworn I saw this same thread within the past year...
Hey...maybe a 27th team will win their 5th playoff game over that time span so it can change!
There's more hope of that happening than us winning 1!
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