(01-12-2018, 01:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Okay, here is a more detailed analysis.
There have only been 2 O-linemen draft in the 4th round or later over the last 7 years who have made the Pro Bowl.
Here is the yearly break down of the number of O-linemen drafted in the fourth round or later who were starters (starter = more than 8 starts) for more than one season and started at least 32 games.
2011...5
2012...3
2013...3
2014...7
2015...3
2016...0 (5 players have started at least 8 games in a single year, but only one has more than 16 starts in 2 years)
2017...0 (no players with more than 8 starts in their rookie season)
So in 7 years I would say there have been a total of 21 O-linemen drafted after the fourth round who became legit "starters", and the Bengals have two of them. There may still be a couple from the '16 and '17 draft who will meet the criteria, but it looks like on average there are about 3 each year or less than 10% of the 32 NFL teams.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=2011&year_max=2017&draft_round_min=4&draft_slot_min=1&draft_slot_max=500&pick_type=overall&pos%5B%5D=t&pos%5B%5D=g&pos%5B%5D=c&pos%5B%5D=ol&conference=any&show=all&order_by=gs
Here is the problem with this: Six time Pro Bowler, two All Pro Geno Atkins would count as a zero after two full seasons and would barely qualify after three seasons getting his 32nd start in the last game of the season.
Tank Johnson had more starts than Geno after three seasons, but wasn't more talented. Your inclusion criteria is inherently flawed because it measures starts, not talent.
(01-12-2018, 03:55 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]Here is the problem with this: Six time Pro Bowler, two All Pro Geno Atkins would count as a zero after two full seasons and would barely qualify after three seasons getting his 32nd start in the last game of the season.
Tank Johnson had more starts than Geno after three seasons, but wasn't more talented. Your inclusion criteria is inherently flawed because it measures starts, not talent.
Then post the info that supports your opinion.
I agree mine is not perfect but at least it is more than just
"It is true because I say so".
(01-12-2018, 04:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Then post the info that supports your opinion.
I agree mine is not perfect but at least it is more than just "It is true because I say so".
Sure, right after you tell me how to objectively measure Geno Atkins talent level and prove empirically he is more talented than Tank Johnson instead of an indirect assessment based upon starts without any type of direct correlation to talent level.
If such a thing was possible then there wouldn't be any draft busts. Therefore, this entire argument is "because I said so" and your opinion is backed up by meaningless fluff as my example indicated.
(01-12-2018, 04:56 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, right after you tell me how to objectively measure Geno Atkins talent level and prove empirically he is more talented than Tank Johnson instead of an indirect assessment based upon starts without any type of direct correlation to talent level.
If such a thing was possible then there wouldn't be any draft busts. Therefore, this entire argument is "because I said so" and your opinion is backed up by meaningless fluff as my example indicated.
How far back does PFF go?
Also, I agree with you that especially with DL, starts are not a good indicator. Someone could be a starter but still get fewer snaps than a non-starter.
And we know Marvin especially doesn't give a damn about things like PFF when it comes to evaluating his players. He will play the person he prefers even if multiple outlets say that player sucks.
(01-12-2018, 04:56 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, right after you tell me how to objectively measure Geno Atkins talent level and prove empirically he is more talented than Tank Johnson instead of an indirect assessment based upon starts without any type of direct correlation to talent level.
If such a thing was possible then there wouldn't be any draft busts. Therefore, this entire argument is "because I said so" and your opinion is backed up by meaningless fluff as my example indicated.
As I said before "Number of starts" is not the most accurate measure of talent, but it is far from "meaningless fluff". It will not tell us who is the best among the starters, but in general the players who start are better than the players who do not start. And the players who start multiple years are generally better than players who have as many as 8 starts just once in their career.
(01-12-2018, 06:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]As I said before "Number of starts" is not the most accurate measure of talent, but it is far from "meaningless fluff". It will not tell us who is the best among the starters, but in general the players who start are better than the players who do not start. And the players who start multiple years are generally better than players who have as many as 8 starts just once in their career.
If I'm not mistaken I don't believe your numbers include undrafted free agents that have become starters.
An O-line coach that was here well before the 2nd longest tenured head coach in the NFL.
An O-line coach who got highly promoted to assistant HC.
An O-line coach who had his hands on anything done with personnel he had overseen.
Please tell me what Paul Alexander has done here that would merit any of these things?
The guy clearly was Mike's pal.
No one else in the organization has had as much rope as him... not even Marvin!
(01-12-2018, 06:38 PM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]So as to your argument wouldn't the undrafted guys be counted as players that are coached up at least doubling your initial numbers?
Just pointing out errors and irregularities.
Yes, but still not as common as some here like to claim.
And 2 of those 52 were guys PA turned into starters (Livings, Cook).
The claim that all NFL coaches are consistently finding starters that are either undrafted or picked in the fourth round or later just is not true. And when you look at the numbers PA was as good as most coaches in finding and developing this type of talent.
During one 12 year stretch ('97-'08) the Bengals used a total of 3 picks in the first two rounds of the draft on O-linemen, and only 2 more on third rounders.
(01-12-2018, 07:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]:
Yes, but still not as common as some here like to claim.
And 2 of those 52 were guys PA turned into starters (Livings, Cook).
The claim that all NFL coaches are consistently finding starters that are either undrafted or picked in the fourth round or later just is not true. And when you look at the numbers PA was as good as most coaches in finding and developing this type of talent.
During one 12 year stretch ('97-'08) the Bengals used a total of 3 picks in the first two rounds of the draft on O-linemen, and only 2 more on third rounders.
This is a bit misleading though, because we had great anchors on the line through much of that (Willie, Braham, Levi, Steinbach, Whit) and we also used Free Agency to plug holes with guys like Bobbie Williams, Richmond Webb, Matt O'Dwyer etc.
We had plenty of talent during those years, and that's a big reason WHY we weren't drafting linemen. That's like having Drew Brees and claiming the Saints QB coach had nothing to work with because they didn't draft a 1st round QB for awhile.
(01-12-2018, 06:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]As I said before "Number of starts" is not the most accurate measure of talent, but it is far from "meaningless fluff". It will not tell us who is the best among the starters, but in general the players who start are better than the players who do not start. And the players who start multiple years are generally better than players who have as many as 8 starts just once in their career.
How many games did Ghiaciuc start for other teams after the Bengals? Andrews? Livings? There is a pattern of offensive lineman with lots of starts for the Bengals who didn't start for another team or were quickly demoted after failing to meet expectations. Bodine has been a perennial starter with little to no competition for those starts.
Judging the quality of offensive linemen by their number of starts is like me claiming you're the second best poster here based upon number of posts because since 2015 only one poster has more post than you. Now that is some meaningless fluff.
While this type of move feels good in the short term i don't really see this making that big of a difference in the overall scheme of things. We still have a mediocre head coach, a mediocre coordinator and a mediocre QB.
(01-12-2018, 01:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]It's a myth that number of starts equals talent. Ghiacuic, Livings, Bodine, Andrews. They all had lots of starts, but not a quality lineman among them.
Eventually, you will admit the truth just like you did with Bratkowski.
Wasn't Fred's argument only that "Other teams aren't getting production from o-linemen drafted in the 4th round or above because they're not starting?" Not sure how his logic is flawed here.
If they're not starting or getting significant playing time, then they're not producing on the field unless we count being a practice dummy as production.
And since very few teams have linemen drafted late as starters, they're either not good enough to produce as a starter or another linemen--either drafted earlier or a free agent--is more productive.
The only assumption that I could question is the one that coaches and teams are correct in the evaluations of their linemen, but i'm willing to bet they're right MOST of the time.