Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(01-16-2018, 06:46 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ] The next Tom Brady maybe there at pick #12 and if he is, we need to grab him.

Brilliant plan.  I am sure the 10 teams picking before us will pass on the next Tom Brady.

(01-16-2018, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]If a team is always looking "long term" then the Bengals approach is not that bad.  But once a team gets close to contending they have to take a chance on a free agent or two.

Teams re-sign their best players so the free agents are usually not the best players in the league.  However a player does not have to be the best at his position in the league to get paid like that.  All he has to be is the best free agent available at his position and he will get paid like the best.  So free agents are almost always over priced, and they often are complete flops when they have to play in a different scheme for a different team.

But even though free agents are over priced it is almost impossible to fill every spot on a team with draft picks alone.  If a team is desperate to fill one specific position in the draft they have to reach over a lot of higher ranked players to draft the best available at their position of need.

So the best tactic is to build through the draft until you are just one or two players away from contending and then take some chances in free agency.

I think 90% of the pro-FA crowd has been saying the same thing for years. I don't know many that have wanted to constantly splurge. We had 5 years where we were close, and Mike refused to push his chips in on any of those years.

And fwiw, these signings aren't nearly as dangerous as some would lead you to believe. Many of them have "easy outs" after 1-2 years. So if you have buyer's remorse, you can get out from under the contract. Of course, this would require a philosophy change on Mike's part. He's big on remaining loyal to these contracts, and in exchange, he offers smaller guaranteed money. 

I'm not sure why Mike likes to do business that way (and it hurts our flexibility with free agency), but Jim O has confirmed that's how he prefers to do things. That's why I don't think we'll see much in free agency this year. Again.

Btw, if you look at recent deals in free agency, many of them are fair money and low on risk. Only a small handful of deals are over the top, and really even those aren't as outrageous as some make it seem. Especially with the steep increase in cap over the last 5+ years.

(01-16-2018, 06:54 PM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]A huge reason FAs sign is the fan base. Are they going to be able to sell jerseys or other various products? Are they going to get many if any at all endorsement deals....and if they retire with the team they sign are they going to able to continue to make money with their name from the fan base.

The Bengals fan base is small makes getting Free Agents just that much more difficult

I don't think this really matters that much.  Last year Jacksonville was one of the biggest players in free agency and their fanbase/market share is worse than the bengals.

(01-16-2018, 07:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Jackson had not played when Dre was a free agent.

That is the same as saying there was no reason to re-sign Whitworth because Ogbuehi was on the roster.

Not true at all. OG proved he was awful; WJ was said to be the best rookie CB by Marvin. They new what they had him no reason to sign Dre.

(01-16-2018, 07:20 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: [ -> ]WJ was said to be the best rookie CB by Marvin. They new what they had him no reason to sign Dre.

You clearly do not remember why WJ had not played.

Note that the teams that use Free Agency properly are the ones that prioritize a need they do not feel they can feel either from the draft or the roster and then they get the best player they can for that need. In this the Bengals tend not only to be too addicted to bargain shopping but also historically have not evaluated well especially in the areas of whether they can address the need through the draft or on the roster.

For example, Center has been a glaring need for years. But each year they either try to bargain shop (drafting Centers in the late rounds as if they are unimportant) or overvaluing what they have on the roster - obviously part of this was Piano Man and his inability to see what makes a good interior lineman.

(01-16-2018, 07:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]You clearly do not remember why WJ had not played.

I know he didn't play but Marvin talked about how great he was in camp that year.

(01-16-2018, 03:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]I think James Rapien makes some great points his latest article. Here are some portions:


We all have ideas to make the Bengals better this offseason. Those include upgrading the offensive line, drafting a potential franchise quarterback and adding speed at linebacker.

I’m on board with all of those ideas. In fact, I want the Bengals to do something much simpler than that. I want them to have an open mind this offseason.

Failures in the draft have also contributed to their decline over the past two seasons. The Bengals prepared for Whitworth and Smith’s departure when they drafted Cedric Ogbuehi and Jake Fisher in the first two rounds of the 2015 NFL Draft. Neither player has worked out.

The Bengals still haven’t found a replacement for Jones either. They’ve drafted four wide receivers, including John Ross and Tyler Boyd since Jones signed with Detroit. Both have dealt with injuries in three combined seasons.

It’s time for the Bengals to alter their offseason mindset. Instead of focusing solely on the draft, they need to emulate strategies from the teams that have had success this season.

Philadelphia didn’t shy away from free agency last offseason. They signed Torrey Smith and Alshon Jeffery. The Eagles also traded up in the draft to select quarterback Carson Wentz. They had a quarterback similar to Dalton (Sam Bradford) when they did so. Jacksonville added multiple free agents over the past few years including A.J. Bouye, Malik Jackson, Barry Church and Calais Campbell. The Vikings signed Riley Reiff, Mike Remmers, Datone Jones, Case Keenum and Latavius Murray last offseason.

Free agency isn’t this big, scary thing that only bad organizations use to make a splash. The great organizations use it as a tool to improve their team. Imagine if the Bengals address their offensive line in the draft, but also signed one or two proven linemen. The Vikings did that last offseason and their one win away from the Super Bowl.

If the Bengals find a quarterback that has more potential than Dalton, then they need to draft him. They haven’t seriously considered drafting a quarterback early at any point during the Dalton era. I’m not saying they have to draft one, but they need to remain open to the idea during the evaluation process.

The Bengals need to be un-Bengal-like this offseason. Instead of being stubborn, they need to turn over every rock, look in every direction and do everything they can to improve the roster.

Ignoring free agency, not looking at quarterback prospects and relying on the draft to improve the roster is the wrong approach. Fans can only hope that Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis realize changes have to be made.

Read the full article https://www.lockedonbengals.com/one-thing-i-want-the-bengals-to-have/.

Should?  Yes?  Will?  Believe it when I see it.

(01-16-2018, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder why this story does not mention any of the really terrible teams that also signed big name free agents?  If signing expensive free agents was all it took to be good then every team in the league would be good.  That being said, I also wish the Bengals would be more active in free agency.  I just always find it funny how people who support signing big name free agents ignore the fact that as many bust as work out.

I also find it amazing that we drafted McCarron without even looking at any QB prospects.  That was  quite a gamble!

The writer never said a word bout signing expensive or big name free agents.  

(01-16-2018, 04:28 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]Some thought on Hob's about the o-line, draft and extensions. Seems like he's already tempering the free agency expectations:

No question they’ll use a raft of picks on the offensive line. Probably not at No. 12. From what I’m hearing early on that’s a deep position in rounds two to four and with an extra third you could easily see them coming out of the first two days with possibly two O-linemen.  I think the Bengals are going to go through due diligence in free agency and look for line upgrades, but I also don’t see them straying far from their philosophy.

They’ve already got their eyes on a pair of huge deals in free agency and they’re named Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap, two of the league’s top defensive linemen heading into their contract years. They’d like/need to get them done now and, yes, they’ll also pursue re-signing a tight end, too. But it’s probably going to be Tyler Kroft and not Tyler Eifert, although they may look at some kind of a reduced deal with Eifert given he’s in another offseason of rehab.

And don’t they have to re-sign right tackle Andre Smith? He really bailed them out at tackle when both Cedric Ogbuehi and Jake Fisher struggled. So with Atkins, Dunlap, Kroft, and Smith theoretically getting extended, they’re going to have to find a guy that fits in that salary structure. The guy they’re expected to lose in free agency is running back Jeremy Hill and Eifert is going to be interesting. If somebody throws big money at him, but it’s most likely not the Bengals.

Translation--Ha! Got you again.  Marvin told that lie just to ease the rampant anger over bringing him back.  Lies in January, false hopes in March, same ol', same ol' in September.  

Hobs sounds like he's shutting the idea down.

Andre deserves to be re-signed? He stepped up when we needed him granted, so maybe but not day 1 (or 30). Reminds me when Winston was a day 1 singing. Both would be out of the league if it wasn't for the Bengals. Why rush it.

We do need to re-sign Atkins and Dunlap. But we can shoot to re-sign one, and tag the other if needed. I'd re-sign Kroft (forget Eifert), and I'd try to re-sign Dennard.

I still like the personnel. Outside of the Oline, and that can be fixed in the draft with the promising guards. We could use a good free agent ILB, and C (both cheaper positions) but other than that there's really not anyone out there to break the bank for.

Get a high pick for AJ and we aren't too far off with some good coahing.

Worse season in recent memory, and yet we somehow won 7 games. Personnel isn't too far off.

(01-16-2018, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder why this story does not mention any of the really terrible teams that also signed big name free agents? If signing expensive free agents was all it took to be good then every team in the league would be good. That being said, I also wish the Bengals would be more active in free agency. I just always find it funny how people who support signing big name free agents ignore the fact that as many bust as work out.

I also find it amazing that we drafted McCarron without even looking at any QB prospects. That was quite a gamble!

Because the article wasn't an analysis of free agency, it's what he wants to see from the this free agency period.

(01-16-2018, 03:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]While I whole heartedly agree that the Bengals could do more in free agency, I'm also not wanting to see money wasted on huge contracts that don't result in improving the team.

Just as in all things, moderation is key.

Indeed. Don't have to be the biggest spenders. But quite scrapin the bottom of the barrel.

(01-16-2018, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]If a team is always looking "long term" then the Bengals approach is not that bad.  But once a team gets close to contending they have to take a chance on a free agent or two.

Teams re-sign their best players so the free agents are usually not the best players in the league.  However a player does not have to be the best at his position in the league to get paid like that.  All he has to be is the best free agent available at his position and he will get paid like the best.  So free agents are almost always over priced, and they often are complete flops when they have to play in a different scheme for a different team.

But even though free agents are over priced it is almost impossible to fill every spot on a team with draft picks alone.  If a team is desperate to fill one specific position in the draft they have to reach over a lot of higher ranked players to draft the best available at their position of need.

So the best tactic is to build through the draft until you are just one or two players away from contending and then take some chances in free agency.

Always looking long term causes you to miss out on the present. They should be exploring all options to improve their chances, not just the cheap ones. And some teams have to let good players go on occasion for numerous reasons.

Whatever the bengals are doing its obviously not the best tactic.

(01-16-2018, 04:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I would like to add that Bengals should not be afraid of cutting underperforming vets, especially those who are in the final year of their contracts with no dead cap if cut. That would help open funds to address actual needs and therefore open the draft too.

Indeed. I doubt Mikey changes this stripe.

(01-16-2018, 04:16 PM)bengals67 Wrote: [ -> ]cant we just try for once signing a really high quality free agent after his first contract and before they are over the hill.

Or keep guys who perform who we drafted like Zietler. Didn't he make the pro bowl this year?

Did Dre K make the pro bowl- the guy we spent the money on instead of Whit or Z despite having  two other first round CBs and a couple of other deceit CBs to cover if he left.

Agreed. Doubt Mikey changes this stripe too.

(01-16-2018, 04:28 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]Some thought on Hob's about the o-line, draft and extensions. Seems like he's already tempering the free agency expectations:

No question they’ll use a raft of picks on the offensive line. Probably not at No. 12. From what I’m hearing early on that’s a deep position in rounds two to four and with an extra third you could easily see them coming out of the first two days with possibly two O-linemen.  I think the Bengals are going to go through due diligence in free agency and look for line upgrades, but I also don’t see them straying far from their philosophy.

They’ve already got their eyes on a pair of huge deals in free agency and they’re named Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap, two of the league’s top defensive linemen heading into their contract years. They’d like/need to get them done now and, yes, they’ll also pursue re-signing a tight end, too. But it’s probably going to be Tyler Kroft and not Tyler Eifert, although they may look at some kind of a reduced deal with Eifert given he’s in another offseason of rehab.

And don’t they have to re-sign right tackle Andre Smith? He really bailed them out at tackle when both Cedric Ogbuehi and Jake Fisher struggled. So with Atkins, Dunlap, Kroft, and Smith theoretically getting extended, they’re going to have to find a guy that fits in that salary structure. The guy they’re expected to lose in free agency is running back Jeremy Hill and Eifert is going to be interesting. If somebody throws big money at him, but it’s most likely not the Bengals.

And here's the we aren't really going to change much as we have upcoming contracts and need to keep 20 mil under the cap for rookies and injuries

(01-16-2018, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Brilliant plan.  I am sure the 10 teams picking before us will pass on the next Tom Brady.

Cherry pick and attack a small part of my post, brilliant tactic Fred when you have nothing of substance to add to it. Below is entire post Fred chose to cherry pick.

"I have said MB is a loyalist to a fault. He is one of the best at 2nd and 3rd contracts. Yes, I know we lose players too, but based on the facts, MB signs players to another contract (keeping his own) at a top 5 in the league clip. His loyalty also hurts him as I can't recall him cutting or making players renegotiate who under perform their contract.


I do hope we look at every position including QB when we analyze the draft. The next Tom Brady maybe there at pick #12 and if he is, we need to grab him. I also hope free agency is considered, a  guy like Campbell would have made our DL and defense better instead of a guy like Sims. But I do get FA can be a crap shoot paying on the high end and many times does not work out.

Many hate ML and I understand. But, how good with this team be if they gave him Belichick type control of the team?

We can all dream, but sadly I will only believe major change after I see major change happen."

Hot take James has some decent points but his overall Deamenor is hard to take. I have tried to listen to his podcast but some days are tough.

(01-16-2018, 11:52 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Hot take James has some decent points but his overall Deamenor is hard to take. I have tried to listen to his podcast but some days are tough.

Yeah, he's extremely negative all the time, and it's ALWAYS about Marv or Dalton.

(01-16-2018, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think this really matters that much.  Last year Jacksonville was one of the biggest players in free agency and their fanbase/market share is worse than the bengals.

Florida has no state income tax, which means a player actually takes home a bigger chunk of that fat contract.  

(01-16-2018, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]If a team is always looking "long term" then the Bengals approach is not that bad.  But once a team gets close to contending they have to take a chance on a free agent or two.

Teams re-sign their best players so the free agents are usually not the best players in the league.  However a player does not have to be the best at his position in the league to get paid like that.  All he has to be is the best free agent available at his position and he will get paid like the best.  So free agents are almost always over priced, and they often are complete flops when they have to play in a different scheme for a different team.

But even though free agents are over priced it is almost impossible to fill every spot on a team with draft picks alone.  If a team is desperate to fill one specific position in the draft they have to reach over a lot of higher ranked players to draft the best available at their position of need.

So the best tactic is to build through the draft until you are just one or two players away from contending and then take some chances in free agency.

I agree about the best FA at a position is not always the best, 2nd, 3rd etc. the thing that frustrates me with this team is they don't even seem to try. Try guys out especially on the Oline. Some players just click better with others regardless of what ranking they are at their position in FA. Bring guys in and find the ones that gel. On the other hand that would be a difficult task with the players on our line.

(01-16-2018, 03:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]If a team is always looking "long term" then the Bengals approach is not that bad.  But once a team gets close to contending they have to take a chance on a free agent or two.

Teams re-sign their best players so the free agents are usually not the best players in the league.  However a player does not have to be the best at his position in the league to get paid like that.  All he has to be is the best free agent available at his position and he will get paid like the best.  So free agents are almost always over priced, and they often are complete flops when they have to play in a different scheme for a different team.

But even though free agents are over priced it is almost impossible to fill every spot on a team with draft picks alone.  If a team is desperate to fill one specific position in the draft they have to reach over a lot of higher ranked players to draft the best available at their position of need.

So the best tactic is to build through the draft until you are just one or two players away from contending and then take some chances in free agency.

Yeah, splurging on a free agent like Whitworth would have really put a dent in that $11 million in unused cap space.

(01-17-2018, 01:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, splurging on a free agent like Whitworth would have really put a dent in that $11 million in unused cap space.

Whoa! we would have lost all pro future HOFer Swag, shew think man.

Bengals do not ned huge names in FA but just address a couple needs.

If they brought in a FA solid Center and a Tackle it would free up our hands in draft.

or maybe a back up QB Teddy Bridgewater, Go Cards !