Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(12-06-2018, 11:30 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]We're living off of the Dalton/Green/Boling draft and the Atkins/Dunlap draft. Other than that, we're mediocre.

And our drafting might not be such a huge thing if we didn't let so many quality free agents leave and fail to replace them with like quality guys.

Right,

Hobspin is always preaching rollover money to sign our own which is great except, we've let many get away. And done a crappy job replacing them for the most part.

(12-06-2018, 11:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]I guess we're just a team filled with stars. 

BTW...Your 4 star guy Dennard has 75 guys rated higher than him by PFF. I guess they're all 5 star guys! 

And Williams has 66 guys ranked ahead of him!

Yes because PFF is the only things that matter. By the way why isn't that you just post there grade but not there actual stats?
By the way any defensive Coordinator would love to work with this Defensive Line and Secondary. LB core is killing them this season.

(12-06-2018, 11:48 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: [ -> ]Yes because PFF is the only things that matter. By the way why isn't that you just post there grade but not there actual stats?
By the way any defensive Coordinator would love to work with this Defensive Line and Secondary. LB core is killing them this season.

I posted his stats in Post 19. Here it is again. His actual stats are actually way worse than his PFF grade:

Dennard has managed a lofty 3 career interceptions in 5 years.

This year he has 0 interceptions and has managed a robust 2 passes defensed.

Pro Bowl nod? I think so! Who could argue with 13 PD's in 5 years!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DennDa00.htm

(12-06-2018, 02:39 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: [ -> ]There's been a lot of discussion on Duke Tobin and the recent draft picks lately and the opinions about who, how, why are sorta all over the place. How good or bad they are and who picked them ?

I'm not getting into who picked them here just my thoughts on the picks as players.

I set up a 5 star system:

5 stars being an excellent player - every game starter who is an impact level player
4 stars being a very good player - above average NFL starter, sees regular playing time and makes plays
3 stars being a solid contributor
2 stars being a role player - very average
1 star being a dud
0 stars being a wasted pick

I focused on the top 3 rounds because for a team that relies nearly solely on the draft you have to hit hoe runs here.

2013: four picks in the top three rounds

1-21 Tyler Eifert - 5 stars - Yes he's been injured/not available for half of his career or better, but I can't blame the Bengals for the pick. He's a game changer if he could stay on the field. In the big picture we've gotten little from him so there's an *

2-5 Gio Bernard - 3 stars - I'm on the fence between 3 and 4 stars here but trying to be totally unbiased I went 3.

2-21 Margus Hunt - 0 stars - wasted pick, BTW he still only has 4 sacks this season.

3-22 Shawn Williams - 3 stars - he's a solid contributor but I don't think he's anything above average

2014: three picks in the top three rounds

1-24 Darqueze Dennard - 3 stars, been injured but can't really say he's above average when on field.

2-23 Jeramy Hill - 1 star - No longer with team had a 8 game run and that's about it.

3-24 Will Clarke - 0 stars - wasted pick.

2015: four picks in the top three rounds

1-21 Cedric Ogbuehi - 0 stars wasted pick, the Jamarcus Russel/Ryan Leaf of 1st round LT's

2-21 Jake Fisher - 1 star - He's thus far been a dud, feel for the guy with heart issues, perhaps a miracle will happen ?

3-21 Tyler Kroft - 2 stars - He flashed last year but thus far overall he's been a role player

3-35 Paul Dawson - 0 stars - wasted pick

2016: three picks in the top three rounds

1-24 William Jackson III - 4 stars - He flashed last season and has contributed some this season. Being a bit generous here hoping he's just in a sophomore slump and suffering from awful coaching.

2-24 Tyler Boyd - 5 stars - a true gem !

3-24 Nick Vigil - 2 stars - He's struggled with some injuries and again bad coaching but I can't really list him higher, yet.

2017: three picks in the top three rounds

1-9 John Ross - 2 stars - Oh boy, can of worms here. Long story short thus far he's not contributed a lot for his draft position. Bad coaching/use is a factor in my mind. He needs to be a hit for sure.

2-16 Joe Mixon - 4 stars - very good player who with a better Oline and coaching could be even higher.

3-9 Jordan Willis - 2 stars - thus far he's been a disappointment overall.

2018: four picks in the top four rounds

It's really hard and a bit unfair to rate these guys already. You can even say that about 2017 picks. So just some thoughts

1-21 Billy Price - Been up and down, mostly down lately. Like Ross we really need him to develop and shine quickly

2-22 Jesse Bates - So far so good, seems like a solid pick

3-13 Sam Hubbard - He's been around the ball a lot and made some plays. I wonder if he would be better already with more playing time ? MJ is still on the field  - A LOT

3-14 Malik Jefferson - Hard to say ? Seems like a bad pick in the making but again - coaching ?

So out of 17 picks in the top three rounds since 2013 (excluding 2018 picks) we have IMHO:

One 5 star pick Tyler Boyd and Another 5 Star pick Tyler Eifert with an asterisk

Two 4 star picks William Jackson and Joe Mixon

Three 3 star picks in Shawn Williams, Darqueze Dennard, and Gio Bernard

So that's 7 quality picks and that's including one who can't stay on the field (Eifert) and it's debatable how deserving Dennard is being listed this high given his draft status ?

On the other end of the spectrum we have some major strikeouts !

Four 0 stars - including Margus Hunt, Will Clarke, Cedric Ogbuehi, and Paul Dawson
Two 1 stars - Jeremy Hill and Jake Fisher
Four 2 stars - Tyler Kroft, John Ross, Jordan Willis, and Nick Vigil

Conclusion: For a team that relies so heavily on the draft our results are poor. We took a giant leap to take Margus Hunt in the 2nd round. We failed miserably with Will Clarke, Cedric Ogbuehi in the first was a colossal mistake, Paul Dawson was a waste. We've drafted exactly one Olineman in the top 3 rounds since the giant FUBAR in 2015.

This is why we are where we are

What say you ?

I say you are correct as usual.

In the end our coaches need to coach up the players. I think this is really what it comes down to.

Honestly cannot hate on our picks that much besides Og, Hunt and Clarke really, Og shouldn't of been drafted.

Thought if coached up properly players like Dawson and Fisher could be decent. Too bad Dawson's head wasn't
in it and Fisher had his health problems. Jeremeh was meh after his rookie season but who is to blame for not
keeping his eye on the grindstone? I blame coaches and it starts with Marv.

(12-07-2018, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]I posted his stats in Post 19. Here it is again. His actual stats are actually way worse than his PFF grade:

Dennard has managed a lofty 3 career interceptions in 5 years.

This year he has 0 interceptions and has managed a robust 2 passes defensed.

Pro Bowl nod? I think so! Who could argue with 13 PD's in 5 years!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DennDa00.htm

He also was second on the team in tackles last season and had an 82 rating in PFF. You act like Nickle is just a pure Corner but it has a lot more reasonability than just that. 

(12-07-2018, 03:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]I say you are correct as usual.

In the end our coaches need to coach up the players. I think this is really what it comes down to.

Honestly cannot hate on our picks that much besides Og, Hunt and Clarke really, Og shouldn't of been drafted.

Thought if coached up properly players like Dawson and Fisher could be decent. Too bad Dawson's head wasn't
in it and Fisher had his health problems. Jeremeh was meh after his rookie season but who is to blame for not
keeping his eye on the grindstone? I blame coaches and it starts with Marv.

Oh I definitely think the lack of good coaching/scheming for many of these guys has been a factor in their lack of development ! And there's also those few, like you said that probably didn't have much of a chance no matter what.

But either way the coaches and F.O. haven't been getting it done. Not at least when you consider we live and die by these picks. We have to hit a bunch of home runs in the first three rounds and we're hitting little tappers back to the mound.

(12-07-2018, 05:51 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: [ -> ]Oh I definitely think the lack of good coaching/scheming for many of these guys has been a factor in their lack of development ! And there's also those few, like you said that probably didn't have much of a chance no matter what.

But either way the coaches and F.O. haven't been getting it done. Not at least when you consider we live and die by these picks. We have to hit a bunch of home runs in the first three rounds and we're hitting little tappers back to the mound.

Yeah, but i think our last draft was pretty damn good. I know Price has had it rough but he was also injured and
playing beside a terrible RG in Redmond and Hopkins is not a good Guard and he was playing next to him at LG
the last game. He is still a rookie and i love his upside with his mind, anchor and run blocking talent.

Jessie Bates could be a great Safety for us and i also really like Hubbard. I think we just need decent coaches on
the Defensive side of the ball and need to move on from Marv and we can see some of these picks really become
great players. We will see what happens, if they keep Marv we are screwed, he has lost the team.

For whatever reason even with our terrible play at Linebacker we never gave Malik Jefferson a shot. Haslett has
to go man, this guy has been downright awful as a coach for us.

If they hire Hue as the next OC i will also be very disappointed, we need a culture change and coaches that know
how to coach up these picks.

(12-07-2018, 05:50 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: [ -> ]He also was second on the team in tackles last season and had an 82 rating in PFF. You act like Nickle is just a pure Corner but it has a lot more reasonability than just that. 

It's great...you criticize me for using PFF and not posting actual stats (even though I did). Then I post actual stats that make him look bad. And you post PFF ratings from last year to justify him being good!   

Since you now appear to value PFF stats...He's the #76 ranked CB this year...meaning 75 guys better than him this year! A year in which he has 0 ints, 0 sacks, and 2 PD's. He has 43 Tackles.

(12-07-2018, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: [ -> ]I posted his stats in Post 19. Here it is again. His actual stats are actually way worse than his PFF grade:

Dennard has managed a lofty 3 career interceptions in 5 years.

This year he has 0 interceptions and has managed a robust 2 passes defensed.

Pro Bowl nod? I think so! Who could argue with 13 PD's in 5 years!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DennDa00.htm

Dennard has played about 1900 snaps.  That is about two seasons for a full time starter.  He may not have many PDs or ints, but he was very solid in coverage last year.  Profootballoutsiders had him ranked 10th among CBs in yards per target and 41 in success rate.