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Im referring To Kenny Boomer and Carson. so all those saying after we drafted him he would never amount too anything his stats match up pretty well even if adjusting for eras just saying

Not bashing Andy, but I am not so sure his numbers are better when adjusted for era.

I don't claim this is the most scientific way to compare but it is the quickest easiest way I can think of.

Last year was Andy's 8th season and the league wide interception percentage was 2.4.
In Palmers 8th season the league interception percentage was a full 25% higher (3.0 in 2010)
In Boomers 8th season it was 46% higher (3.5 in 1991)
And in Kenny's 8th season it was 125% higher (5.4 in 1978). Most people don't realize that in the early 70's when Anderson came into the league the passing numbers were actually worse than they were in the 60's and most of the 50's. It was the low point of the passing game in the modern era. In 1971 the average NFL team only completed 51% of passes for 2180 yards (155 per game) 15 tds and 21 interceptions. The league average passer rating was 62.2. Ten years earlier in 1962 NFL teams threw for 194 yards per game, 21+ tds and a 72.6 efficiency rating.

I said match up well didn't say better. They are all really close during their careers here.

One of the only things I think Dalton actually does better than Palmer.

(09-12-2019, 10:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]One of the only things I think Dalton actually does better than Palmer.

I think Dalton moves better than Palmer, but Carson had that incredible arm.

Some people act like he was crippled when he was playing for the Cards, but he still had that cannon arm.  He could still throw those ridiculous deep outs all the way across the field on a rope.  Deep bombs downfield are more about timing than arm strength, but throwing those deep outs is all about the arm.

(09-13-2019, 12:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]I think Dalton moves better than Palmer, but Carson had that incredible arm.

Some people act like he was crippled when he was playing for the Cards, but he still had that cannon arm.  He could still throw those ridiculous deep outs all the way across the field on a rope.  Deep bombs downfield are more about timing than arm strength, but throwing those deep outs is all about the arm.

I don't know about when he was with the Cards, but when he was here, Carson was much better in the pocket than Dalton. As soon as Carson's back foot planted, he immediately started 'climbing the pocket' and he was able to manipulate the pocket just enough to get room. Dalton drops back and stays in his spot. When he does have to move, he has a habit of running stright out to his left and having to throw against his body. He literally has no ability to move around in the pocket and create space. 

Dalton is a good passer and he's one of the smartest QBs in the game today. If he could just somehow learn to manipulate the pocket, he would be very good. 

(09-13-2019, 03:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know about when he was with the Cards, but when he was here, Carson was much better in the pocket than Dalton. As soon as Carson's back foot planted, he immediately started 'climbing the pocket' and he was able to manipulate the pocket just enough to get room. Dalton drops back and stays in his spot. When he does have to move, he has a habit of running stright out to his left and having to throw against his body. He literally has no ability to move around in the pocket and create space. 

Dalton is a good passer and he's one of the smartest QBs in the game today. If he could just somehow learn to manipulate the pocket, he would be very good. 

I'm honestly surprised that Van Pelt hasn't fixed that yet.

(09-13-2019, 05:26 PM)Earendil Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly surprised that Van Pelt hasn't fixed that yet.

Yep. It's blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes. You have to believe someone on the staff has seen it and i wonder if it's been addressed. 

(09-13-2019, 03:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know about when he was with the Cards, but when he was here, Carson was much better in the pocket than Dalton. As soon as Carson's back foot planted, he immediately started 'climbing the pocket' and he was able to manipulate the pocket just enough to get room. Dalton drops back and stays in his spot. When he does have to move, he has a habit of running stright out to his left and having to throw against his body. He literally has no ability to move around in the pocket and create space. 

Dalton is a good passer and he's one of the smartest QBs in the game today. If he could just somehow learn to manipulate the pocket, he would be very good. 

Personal opinion is this is a function of the oline.

We know problems he has faced over the years with batted passes and the interior of the line collapsing.  Both of these problems prohibit climbing to the top of the pocket.  How many times over the years have we seen him get to the back of his drop only to throw off his back foot due to pressure causing him to need to give ground?  As for the left sided escape, that has been the only exit point for most of his time here.  He had Whitworth handling his man and carrying him past the QBs backside, and Boling stonewalling his man long enough to create that opening.  Meanwhile the C was constantly collapsing to his right side.  During Ced's time at LT it wasn't as prominent, as that crease wasn't there, rather it was filled by a defender.

You mentioned yourself how smart of a QB he is.  With solid line play that gives more avenues for escape, I think you would no longer see a trend of where he goes.

(09-15-2019, 12:56 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: [ -> ]Personal opinion is this is a function of the oline.

We know problems he has faced over the years with batted passes and the interior of the line collapsing.  Both of these problems prohibit climbing to the top of the pocket.  How many times over the years have we seen him get to the back of his drop only to throw off his back foot due to pressure causing him to need to give ground?  As for the left sided escape, that has been the only exit point for most of his time here.  He had Whitworth handling his man and carrying him past the QBs backside, and Boling stonewalling his man long enough to create that opening.  Meanwhile the C was constantly collapsing to his right side.  During Ced's time at LT it wasn't as prominent, as that crease wasn't there, rather it was filled by a defender.

You mentioned yourself how smart of a QB he is.  With solid line play that gives more avenues for escape, I think you would no longer see a trend of where he goes.

There was talk before about piano man's lines and how they gave up too much space, absorbing rushers instead of attacking. The function of a pocket dictates they need to retreat, but i think they used to retreat too much. I haven't really noticed this year but after Pollack was hired they talked about how this was something he did different...something like making their sets sooner, attacking the Dline more. 

This year, with Turner, the pass pro seems to be better, but it still seems the Dline is pushing the pocket sooner than it should. I guess that's something i'll look at closer today.

One thing that can't be denied--we've seen it this preseason with our own eyes--the other 2 QBs on the roster were able to move around (something Finley did quite well) and create space without having to blast out of the pocket at the first sign of pressure. 

EDIT: One other thing i meant to mention. Back when Carson was here, the 7 step drop was still common. You rarely see a 7 step drop today with the variations of the WCO you see today by a lot of teams.

(09-12-2019, 02:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Not bashing Andy, but I am not so sure his numbers are better when adjusted for era.

I don't claim this is the most scientific way to compare but it is the quickest easiest way I can think of.

Last year was Andy's 8th season and the league wide interception percentage was 2.4.
In Palmers 8th season the league interception percentage was a full 25% higher (3.0 in 2010)
In Boomers 8th season it was 46% higher (3.5 in 1991)
And in Kenny's 8th season it was 125% higher (5.4 in 1978).  Most people don't realize that in the early 70's when Anderson came into the league the passing numbers were actually worse than they were in the 60's and most of the 50's.  It was the low point of the passing game in the modern era.  In 1971 the average NFL team only completed 51% of passes for 2180 yards (155 per game) 15 tds and 21 interceptions.  The league average passer rating was 62.2.  Ten years earlier in 1962 NFL teams threw for 194 yards per game, 21+ tds and a 72.6 efficiency rating.

The 70's and 80's were the era of the RB, they were the face of a lot of franchises. Earl Campbell, Walter Payton, Tony Dorsett, John Riggins, Eric Dickerson to name a few. Plus the word defense had a whole different meaning back then.

(09-13-2019, 03:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know about when he was with the Cards, but when he was here, Carson was much better in the pocket than Dalton. As soon as Carson's back foot planted, he immediately started 'climbing the pocket' and he was able to manipulate the pocket just enough to get room. Dalton drops back and stays in his spot. When he does have to move, he has a habit of running stright out to his left and having to throw against his body. He literally has no ability to move around in the pocket and create space. 

Dalton is a good passer and he's one of the smartest QBs in the game today. If he could just somehow learn to manipulate the pocket, he would be very good. 

Dalton was selected in 2011 to replace Palmer. He was selected because he fit the offensive scheme that Jay Gruden created for the Bengals as the new OC. AJ was an easy pick but finding a QB that fit the new scheme resulted in the team selecting AD. 

When Hue Jackson took over the offense his offense was also designed around Dalton ability.

My issue isn't with Andy Dalton; it is with the coaches trying to fit a triangle into a round hole. 

If the triangle isn't working and you want the round hole than you better go get that circle to ensure success. That is what the Bengals need to do with the draft or maybe said player is already on the team just waiting to show what they can do when given the chance to play with the firt team. 

If the Bengals get to 0-8 I would start to use the other two QBs to evaluate them for next year to see if they are worth keeping around. 

(09-13-2019, 05:26 PM)Earendil Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly surprised that Van Pelt hasn't fixed that yet.

That is not something you can be taught. You are born with it. You can get better but only so much. Pocket movement is instincts and athleticism which Andy lacks. So what I’m saying is he will never be good at it. Brady Rodgers etc were never taught how to move in the pocket they do it naturally.

(10-15-2019, 11:34 PM)bengalsfansince93 Wrote: [ -> ]That is not something you can be taught. You are born with it. You can get better but only so much. Pocket movement is instincts and athleticism which Andy lacks. So what I’m saying is he will never be good at it. Brady Rodgers etc were never taught how to move in the pocket they do it naturally.

Dalton's ceiling is Philip Rivers he just needs a good to great line to be given the opportunity. Put Dalton on the Cowboys he would be an MVP candidate.

(10-17-2019, 11:22 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: [ -> ]Dalton's ceiling is Philip Rivers he just needs a good to great line to be given the opportunity. Put Dalton on the Cowboys he would be an MVP candidate.

(10-17-2019, 06:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]

Don't laugh.  In 2015 the Bengals had a good line, and Dalton was in all the MVP talks up to the broken thumb.

(10-17-2019, 07:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Don't laugh.  In 2015 the Bengals had a good line, and Dalton was in all the MVP talks up to the broken thumb.

So one time in 9 years, for part of a season he was kinda, sorta, in the MVP discussion. To me that’s an outlier, and not who Dalton is. He’s also not the 2.0 game vs the Browns Dalton either. He’s somewhere in the middle. Well, he was anyway, he’s pretty much done at this point.

And that wasn’t the only part I was laughing at. Saying his ceiling is Phillip Rivers, who will probably be in Canton some day is pretty funny to me as well. Dalton will have to buy a ticket if he ever wants to get into the HoF.

(10-17-2019, 07:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]So one time in 9 years, for part of a season he was kinda, sorta, in the MVP discussion. To me that’s an outlier, and not who Dalton is. He’s also not the 2.0 game vs the Browns Dalton either. He’s somewhere in the middle. Well, he was anyway, he’s pretty much done at this point.

And that wasn’t the only part I was laughing at. Saying his ceiling is Phillip Rivers, who will probably be in Canton some day is pretty funny to me as well. Dalton will have to buy a ticket if he ever wants to get into the HoF.

I agree that trying to equate Andy's best game to being that of Phillip Rivers is a bit of a stretch.  If anything Phillip Rivers = Carson Palmer in terms of physical and football characteristics.  

Andy is talented, but needs the right OC in order to design the offense to his strengths.  Andy performed and grew by leaps and bounds under OCs like Jay Gruden and Hue Jackson, under the more "conventional" types, he has regressed in a major way.  Now, in Jay and Hue's defense, they also had an OL that could at least support a running game, to take some of the pressure off of the passing attack.

I'm not saying that Andy is great, or he should even be re-signed, but he's not the root of the problems that are going on here.

(10-17-2019, 07:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that trying to equate Andy's best game to being that of Phillip Rivers is a bit of a stretch.  If anything Phillip Rivers = Carson Palmer in terms of physical and football characteristics.  

Andy is talented, but needs the right OC in order to design the offense to his strengths.  Andy performed and grew by leaps and bounds under OCs like Jay Gruden and Hue Jackson, under the more "conventional" types, he has regressed in a major way.  Now, in Jay and Hue's defense, they also had an OL that could at least support a running game, to take some of the pressure off of the passing attack.

I'm not saying that Andy is great, or he should even be re-signed, but he's not the root of the problems that are going on here.

Nope, and Rivers and company are struggling this year with poor line play.

(10-18-2019, 03:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: [ -> ]Nope, and Rivers and company are struggling this year with poor line play.

The shortage of NFL ready Tackles coming from the college game is beginning to take it's toll, across the league.