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Still hoping they end signing a LBer somehow. With Whitehead signing with the Panthers, I think their best options of those who are left is either Ogletree or Onwuasor.

(03-23-2020, 01:57 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]For what it's worth, it sounds like they were in the running for both Schobert and Kwiatkoski, but chose to re-allocate their money to more critical positions such as DT and CB when the bidding got too high. I think Schobert was undeniably overpaid. Kwiatkoski I think would have been a good use of 7 million per year, but there's always the chance that he chose the Raiders over the Bengals, I don't know.The linebackers in free agency kind of went for absurd prices all around. Blake Martinez somehow got 10 million per year when he's a replacement level player at LB.

The point is, we were never going to fill all the holes on this team in one year. I am happy with the signings they did do because it allows us to go heavy on offense in the draft. If linebacker remains a huge issue for us in 2020, we can fix it in 2021, when we don't have gaping holes at QB, WR, CB, DT, LB and OL.

They, the infamous "they" say Kwiatkowski couldn't wait to go sign with the Raiders. Pretty hard to talk a guy out of his dream job.

(03-23-2020, 02:22 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]Still hoping they end signing a LBer somehow. With Whitehead signing with the Panthers, I think their best options of those who are left is either Ogletree or Onwuasor.

I'm kinda impartial to Vonn Bell or Reshad Jones at this point.

(03-23-2020, 02:28 PM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]I'm kinda impartial to Vonn Bell or Reshad Jones at this point.

Mark Barron is worth considering.

(03-23-2020, 02:28 PM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]I'm kinda impartial to Vonn Bell or Reshad Jones at this point.

Would love to see Vonn Bell, but not so big on Jones due to his age and injuries over the past couple of years.

(03-23-2020, 01:57 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]For what it's worth, it sounds like they were in the running for both Schobert and Kwiatkoski, but chose to re-allocate their money to more critical positions such as DT and CB when the bidding got too high. I think Schobert was undeniably overpaid. Kwiatkoski I think would have been a good use of 7 million per year, but there's always the chance that he chose the Raiders over the Bengals, I don't know.The linebackers in free agency kind of went for absurd prices all around. Blake Martinez somehow got 10 million per year when he's a replacement level player at LB.

The point is, we were never going to fill all the holes on this team in one year. I am happy with the signings they did do because it allows us to go heavy on offense in the draft. If linebacker remains a huge issue for us in 2020, we can fix it in 2021, when we don't have gaping holes at QB, WR, CB, DT, LB and OL.

I'm intrigued to see how the defense will perform, as you would think NT will be a big emphasis if they were willing to spend so much for Reader.
I still have a hard time believing NT was more important than getting a premiere LB, but we'll have to wait and see how the defense performs to confirm or deny that belief.

(03-23-2020, 12:04 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]Was about to say this.

We still don't have the details for D.J. Reader's contract, so any cap projections are speculation, but if we assume he takes the AAV hit of 13.25 million, that leaves us with approximately 2.3 million in cap space.

Once we get rid of Dalton, that will jump to 20 million, but 11 to 12 million of that will be used for our rookie draft class.

The other 8 to 9 million will likely be used as "injury insurance" or maybe extending Mixon or possibly Jackson, although the latter seems less likely.

Our numbers are telling me we're pretty much done with free agency. We may sign a bit player here or there, but no big signings are possible past this point. At least not until we cut Dre (which it looks like we're not going to, interestingly enough).

For every player you sign - including the draft picks whose money you've already allocated - you need to cut someone to make room for them.

So spending 11-12m gross on draft picks will produce a net spend of, at most, half that. Any free agents still standing aren't going to be on top money and there will be bargains to be had.

(03-23-2020, 03:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I'm intrigued to see how the defense will perform, as you would think NT will be a big emphasis if they were willing to spend so much for Reader.
I still have a hard time believing NT was more important than getting a premiere LB, but we'll have to wait and see how the defense performs to confirm or deny that belief.

This may be an extreme take and may be biased based on our situation, but I think off ball linebackers are the least important position on the defense.

Obviously, you want competent linebackers and you'll suffer if you lack them. But the linebackers' main duties are plugging holes in run defense and offering modest coverage over the middle of the field and occasionally man coverage on a TE or RB.

To me, linebackers are the running backs of the defense.
There are some linebackers that are so good, they create for themselves. Just like there are some running backs that are so good they create for themselves.
But, by and large, the success of your Linebackers is dependent on the success of your Dline, and the success of your running backs is dependent on the success of your Oline.

You could have the best RB in the world, but if the Oline doesn't open holes for him, he'll never truly lead your team to wins. Same with linebackers and the Dline.

If your Dline can't occupy blockers and keep Olinemen off the linebackers, it doesn't matter how well those Linebackers can shed blocks or tackle.

So having a NT that can legitimately and consistently occupy the Center and the Guard in all run plays really frees up your linebackers to flow to the ball. Whereas, if you have, say, Schobert and Billings, Billings may not be able to contain the guard, allowing him into the second level where he takes Schobert out of the play anyway.
In the former situation, who is playing LB isn't all that important, as long as they are competent enough to make the tackle. In the latter, it doesn't matter who is playing LB, as they're being wiped by the guard.

So...LB as a position relies on the defensive line to be effective. There's a reason linebackers never go in the top 5 anymore, unless they are pass rushers.

Now, linebackers also have the responsibility to defend in the pass, which is important, but with the way the NFL is trending today, a lot of teams run a 4-2-5 set or sometimes even a 4-1-6 set on passing downs (or, in our case even on normal down situations). That makes the slot cornerback almost as important as your 2nd linebacker.

We have Shawn Williams to play that hybrid role in these nickel and dime looks and Pratt as the main linebacker in the set. So we really only NEED one more good linebacker in order to have a functional and competent defense.

I think we can find one in the first three rounds of the draft. If we can get Murray in the 2nd round, that would be the dream, but I also really like Willie Gay Jr or Malik Harrison in the 3rd round. Even Aeem Davis-Gaither can fill that role very well coming in the 3rd or 4th round.

I imagine the Bengals made this same evaluation of the position and deemed the Dline and CB position more important than LB when it comes to shoring up the defense. 

Or maybe I'm biased because we didn't get a good linebacker in FA .

(03-23-2020, 03:31 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: [ -> ]For every player you sign - including the draft picks whose money you've already allocated - you need to cut someone to make room for them.

So spending 11-12m gross on draft picks will produce a net spend of, at most, half that. Any free agents still standing aren't going to be on top money and there will be bargains to be had.

That's true. So we're probably looking at scrubbing a few million off from cuts in training camp.

Maybe they can sign one more quality free agent then.

I'm hoping for a signing like a Jason Peters or Demar Dotson on a one year deal to shore up the OT situation. Probably leaning more Dotson since he can play RT.

Would be a great finish to the offseason with a Bynes and Peters signing..

(03-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]This may be an extreme take and may be biased based on our situation, but I think off ball linebackers are the least important position on the defense.

Obviously, you want competent linebackers and you'll suffer if you lack them. But the linebackers' main duties are plugging holes in run defense and offering modest coverage over the middle of the field and occasionally man coverage on a TE or RB.

To me, linebackers are the running backs of the defense.
There are some linebackers that are so good, they create for themselves. Just like there are some running backs that are so good they create for themselves.
But, by and large, the success of your Linebackers is dependent on the success of your Dline, and the success of your running backs is dependent on the success of your Oline.

You could have the best RB in the world, but if the Oline doesn't open holes for him, he'll never truly lead your team to wins. Same with linebackers and the Dline.

If your Dline can't occupy blockers and keep Olinemen off the linebackers, it doesn't matter how well those Linebackers can shed blocks or tackle.

So having a NT that can legitimately and consistently occupy the Center and the Guard in all run plays really frees up your linebackers to flow to the ball. Whereas, if you have, say, Schobert and Billings, Billings may not be able to contain the guard, allowing him into the second level where he takes Schobert out of the play anyway.
In the former situation, who is playing LB isn't all that important, as long as they are competent enough to make the tackle. In the latter, it doesn't matter who is playing LB, as they're being wiped by the guard.

So...LB as a position relies on the defensive line to be effective. There's a reason linebackers never go in the top 5 anymore, unless they are pass rushers.

Now, linebackers also have the responsibility to defend in the pass, which is important, but with the way the NFL is trending today, a lot of teams run a 4-2-5 set or sometimes even a 4-1-6 set on passing downs (or, in our case even on normal down situations). That makes the slot cornerback almost as important as your 2nd linebacker.

We have Shawn Williams to play that hybrid role in these nickel and dime looks and Pratt as the main linebacker in the set. So we really only NEED one more good linebacker in order to have a functional and competent defense.

I think we can find one in the first three rounds of the draft. If we can get Murray in the 2nd round, that would be the dream, but I also really like Willie Gay Jr or Malik Harrison in the 3rd round. Even Aeem Davis-Gaither can fill that role very well coming in the 3rd or 4th round.

I imagine the Bengals made this same evaluation of the position and deemed the Dline and CB position more important than LB when it comes to shoring up the defense. 

Or maybe I'm biased because we didn't get a good linebacker in FA .

I see your point. I think I either have an outdated view and/or don't see the logic in how a really good, fast LB who can go sideline to sideline, cover a TE, etc. isn't as highly regarded anymore.
I'll feel less concerned if the Bengals get a LB in Rd 2, but it's an uncertainty right now that I don't like lol.

(03-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]This may be an extreme take and may be biased based on our situation, but I think off ball linebackers are the least important position on the defense.

Obviously, you want competent linebackers and you'll suffer if you lack them. But the linebackers' main duties are plugging holes in run defense and offering modest coverage over the middle of the field and occasionally man coverage on a TE or RB.

To me, linebackers are the running backs of the defense.
There are some linebackers that are so good, they create for themselves. Just like there are some running backs that are so good they create for themselves.
But, by and large, the success of your Linebackers is dependent on the success of your Dline, and the success of your running backs is dependent on the success of your Oline.

You could have the best RB in the world, but if the Oline doesn't open holes for him, he'll never truly lead your team to wins. Same with linebackers and the Dline.

If your Dline can't occupy blockers and keep Olinemen off the linebackers, it doesn't matter how well those Linebackers can shed blocks or tackle.

So having a NT that can legitimately and consistently occupy the Center and the Guard in all run plays really frees up your linebackers to flow to the ball. Whereas, if you have, say, Schobert and Billings, Billings may not be able to contain the guard, allowing him into the second level where he takes Schobert out of the play anyway.
In the former situation, who is playing LB isn't all that important, as long as they are competent enough to make the tackle. In the latter, it doesn't matter who is playing LB, as they're being wiped by the guard.

So...LB as a position relies on the defensive line to be effective. There's a reason linebackers never go in the top 5 anymore, unless they are pass rushers.

Now, linebackers also have the responsibility to defend in the pass, which is important, but with the way the NFL is trending today, a lot of teams run a 4-2-5 set or sometimes even a 4-1-6 set on passing downs (or, in our case even on normal down situations). That makes the slot cornerback almost as important as your 2nd linebacker.

We have Shawn Williams to play that hybrid role in these nickel and dime looks and Pratt as the main linebacker in the set. So we really only NEED one more good linebacker in order to have a functional and competent defense.

I think we can find one in the first three rounds of the draft. If we can get Murray in the 2nd round, that would be the dream, but I also really like Willie Gay Jr or Malik Harrison in the 3rd round. Even Aeem Davis-Gaither can fill that role very well coming in the 3rd or 4th round.

I imagine the Bengals made this same evaluation of the position and deemed the Dline and CB position more important than LB when it comes to shoring up the defense. 

Or maybe I'm biased because we didn't get a good linebacker in FA .

You are on fire today CJD, great post man.

(03-23-2020, 03:44 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: [ -> ]This may be an extreme take and may be biased based on our situation, but I think off ball linebackers are the least important position on the defense.

Obviously, you want competent linebackers and you'll suffer if you lack them. But the linebackers' main duties are plugging holes in run defense and offering modest coverage over the middle of the field and occasionally man coverage on a TE or RB.

To me, linebackers are the running backs of the defense.
There are some linebackers that are so good, they create for themselves. Just like there are some running backs that are so good they create for themselves.
But, by and large, the success of your Linebackers is dependent on the success of your Dline, and the success of your running backs is dependent on the success of your Oline.

You could have the best RB in the world, but if the Oline doesn't open holes for him, he'll never truly lead your team to wins. Same with linebackers and the Dline.

If your Dline can't occupy blockers and keep Olinemen off the linebackers, it doesn't matter how well those Linebackers can shed blocks or tackle.

So having a NT that can legitimately and consistently occupy the Center and the Guard in all run plays really frees up your linebackers to flow to the ball. Whereas, if you have, say, Schobert and Billings, Billings may not be able to contain the guard, allowing him into the second level where he takes Schobert out of the play anyway.
In the former situation, who is playing LB isn't all that important, as long as they are competent enough to make the tackle. In the latter, it doesn't matter who is playing LB, as they're being wiped by the guard.

So...LB as a position relies on the defensive line to be effective. There's a reason linebackers never go in the top 5 anymore, unless they are pass rushers.

Now, linebackers also have the responsibility to defend in the pass, which is important, but with the way the NFL is trending today, a lot of teams run a 4-2-5 set or sometimes even a 4-1-6 set on passing downs (or, in our case even on normal down situations). That makes the slot cornerback almost as important as your 2nd linebacker.

We have Shawn Williams to play that hybrid role in these nickel and dime looks and Pratt as the main linebacker in the set. So we really only NEED one more good linebacker in order to have a functional and competent defense.

I think we can find one in the first three rounds of the draft. If we can get Murray in the 2nd round, that would be the dream, but I also really like Willie Gay Jr or Malik Harrison in the 3rd round. Even Aeem Davis-Gaither can fill that role very well coming in the 3rd or 4th round.

I imagine the Bengals made this same evaluation of the position and deemed the Dline and CB position more important than LB when it comes to shoring up the defense. 

Or maybe I'm biased because we didn't get a good linebacker in FA .

Rep to you Dawg for this post!

Can I simplify if just a touch for you though???

Games are won and lost in the TRENCHES!! Lol

First round draft picks since 2015 for:
DL---20
LB---11

Case CLOSED! Give me READER and GENO all day long and they can throw whatever 2 LBers you want in there.

I have been really down on Bengal management since they did not fire Marv after the Pittsburgh meltdown. They just  completely wasted the following two years by keeping Marv.

But give them a lot of credit this off season. Reader could be the best nose tackle in the league and signing him was a coup giving our atrocious run defense.

When have the Bengals ever signed the top guy at his position in free agency!

Investing in Reader was better than way over paying for the LBs signed so far.

Average or worse LBs can do a lot better when the tackles are eating the blockers the way Reader can eat blockers.

They cannot fix this team in one year but I have to give them credit for an approach to free agency none of us have seen before and making a very good start.

I am drinking the kool aid again and have high hopes for Burrow!

(03-23-2020, 04:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]I see your point. I think I either have an outdated view and/or don't see the logic in how a really good, fast LB who can go sideline to sideline, cover a TE, etc. isn't as highly regarded anymore.
I'll feel less concerned if the Bengals get a LB in Rd 2, but it's an uncertainty right now that I don't like lol.

I wouldn't say it isn't highly regarded. You have your Luke Kuechlys who are very highly praised across the NFL.

It's just they're uncommon.

Super uncommon. Especially in today's NFL. Do it all linebackers are great, but unnecessary.

(03-23-2020, 04:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]You are on fire today CJD, great post man.

Thanks Nate. I've found time to do a bit more football thinking recently XD.

(03-23-2020, 04:50 PM)JerseyDD09 Wrote: [ -> ]Rep to you Dawg for this post!

Can I simplify if just a touch for you though???

Games are won and lost in the TRENCHES!! Lol

First round draft picks since 2015 for:
DL---20
LB---11

Case CLOSED! Give me READER and GENO all day long and they can throw whatever 2 LBers you want in there.

That is a much simpler way of saying it haha.

(03-23-2020, 12:55 AM)samhain Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, that's what I thought.  This is another reason that I think both Andy and Dre are goners.  They are probably doing diligence by seeing if they can get something before cutting bait.  

Before FA a Mixon extension was thought to be a foregone conclusion this offseason.  Now they can't afford it.  They need to drop some salary just to get ready for signing rookies.  

Unfortunately, they are over a barrel with Dre and Andy.  Anyone interested has to know that it's a matter of time before they are released.  that being the case, why would anyone give up anything for them? 

It sucks not to get something for Dalton, but I'll take it if that's the cost of an aggressive free agency period.  

I wonder of other unexpected cuts are looming.

Yep. And don't forget that if another team waits until after Dalton is cut, they can then sign him for less money. That's the most likely scenario that I see. Same holds true for DreK.

 

(03-23-2020, 08:21 PM)BengalChris Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. And don't forget that if another team waits until after Dalton is cut, they can then sign him for less money. That's the most likely scenario that I see. Same holds true for DreK.

 

Agreed, my only complaint this Offseason is not handling the Dalton situation well.

Take what you can get and let him go where he is in a good place.

Some are acting like Dalton has no value whatsoever, I disagree. He can still be a solid QB in the right system and has one of the 
quickest releases in the League. He is smart and can be accurate and he is a pro and a class act. Just wish he didn't panic every 
time the pocket breaks down or even when it doesn't. 

Maybe this is what other teams are seeing?

(03-23-2020, 08:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed, my only complaint this Offseason is not handling the Dalton situation well.

Take what you can get and let him go where he is in a good place.

Some are acting like Dalton has no value whatsoever, I disagree. He can still be a solid QB in the right system and has one of the 
quickest releases in the League. He is smart and can be accurate and he is a pro and a class act. Just wish he didn't panic every 
time the pocket breaks down or even when it doesn't. 

Maybe this is what other teams are seeing?

I think he does have value to a certain extent, I'm just not sure what team is bringing him in at this point for a draft pick. Most of the QB situations at this point are settled or will be settled after the draft, so the other teams know that the Bengals are stuck in a hard place with him. The market has unfortunately settled and we didn't take what we could get.

(03-23-2020, 08:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed, my only complaint this Offseason is not handling the Dalton situation well.

Take what you can get and let him go where he is in a good place.

Some are acting like Dalton has no value whatsoever, I disagree. He can still be a solid QB in the right system and has one of the 
quickest releases in the League. He is smart and can be accurate and he is a pro and a class act. Just wish he didn't panic every 
time the pocket breaks down or even when it doesn't. 

Maybe this is what other teams are seeing?

Yeah, if it's true that the Bears offered a 4th round pick, then that was a bad move by Mike Brown. The team could have used that pick.

Dalton will land somewhere and if the situation is right he could find himself starting again.