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Im not worried, but I also know if the Browns or Steelers were in position to draft him we would be hammering home that he is a one year wonder. Such is fandom.

(04-21-2020, 02:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Hmmm, I wonder why he did not hate losing the first four years of his college career?

Urban Stated that QB competition was quite close and Burrow was injured and lost the job to Haskins.  I remember the Spring game and reading that each of the 3 QB at the time (I cannot remember the 3rd) but Each QB had their strengths and Burrow was slinging it.  

(04-21-2020, 03:19 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: [ -> ]Urban Stated that QB competition was quite close and Burrow was injured and lost the job to Haskins.  I remember the Spring game and reading that each of the 3 QB at the time (I cannot remember the 3rd) but Each QB had their strengths and Burrow was slinging it.  

Going off memory here but it was something like this...Barrett starter, Haskins/Burrow competing for backup in the Spring...Burrow injured in the fall just before start of season, had surgery.  Haskins now backup going into season and won the TTUN game when Barrett got injured.  Burrow transferred the next Spring knowing that Haskins was probably going to be the starter after the TTUN game performance.  I believe Burrow did play a bit after his surgery in that season

One year wonders aren't the issue historically. It's the one year starters that have shown that they rarely succeed.

There are far too many examples of actual "one-year wonders" who flamed out in the NFL to call it an illogical or nonsensical phenomenon. E.g., Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware (Heisman winner), Steve Emtman, Chris Weinke, Rashan Salaam (Heisman winner), Heath Shuler, Cardale Jones, David Carr. Most of these guys gradually improved each year, peaking in their "breakout" seasons, before being drafted high and busting in the NFL. Some were busts because of injury, others for off the field issues, others just weren't that good in the first place.

On the other hand, there are also guys who had only one year of success in college and ended up having a successful NFL career. Cam Newton comes to mind. For others, like Kyler Murray, it's too soon to tell.

I'm sure our FO has considered all this before deciding to draft Burrow, and here's hoping he turns out to be more Cam than Andre Ware.

(04-21-2020, 03:39 PM)shanebo Wrote: [ -> ]There are far too many examples of actual "one-year wonders" who flamed out in the NFL to call it an illogical or nonsensical phenomenon.  E.g., Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware (Heisman winner), Steve Emtman, Chris Weinke, Rashan Salaam (Heisman winner), Heath Shuler, Cardale Jones, David Carr.  Most of these guys gradually improved each year, peaking in their "breakout" seasons, before being drafted high and busting in the NFL.  Some were busts because of injury, others for off the field issues, others just weren't that good in the first place.

On the other hand, there are also guys who had only one year of success in college and ended up having a successful NFL career.  Cam Newton comes to mind.  For others, like Kyler Murray, it's too soon to tell.  

I'm sure our FO has considered all this before deciding to draft Burrow, and here's hoping he turns out to be more Cam than Andre Ware.

He was a backup at Florida for 2 years, had a great year at JC and then another great year at Auburn.

The most recent 1 year guy was Trubisky.  Backup for 2 years and barely played, had one good year and declared early.  That's the blueprint for failure right there

(04-21-2020, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, right.  Years of actual NFL draft history is just a bunch of bullshit everyone should ignore.


Being a "one year wonder" is just one piece of information scouts use to evaluate players, just like a forty yard dash time.  It does not automatically mean the player is excluded.  It just means their are some questions.  If a top WR has a bad forty time at the combine teams don't automatically drop the guy in the draft.  Instead they go back and watch more film to see if the slow forty time might be a problem.  Burrow looked great in 2019, but his play in 2018 still creates some questions.  Personally I believe a good bit of his increase in production was due to coaching and the talent around him, but at the same time he has no big flaws that would keep him from being the #1 overall pick.

The funny thing is how some of the same people who claim we should ignore Dalton's one great year love Burrow based on just one great year.  Professional scouts can spot talented QBs even when they are playing on bad teams with poor coaches, and in 2018 not one scout was seeing anything great in Burrow.

I didn't say ignore the evaluative process of NFL players, I said it is not logical to conclude Burrow's elite performance was a fluke.  Even if Burrow's performance was heavily influenced by Joe Brady's system, a system can only disguise an athlete's flaws so far.  Sort of what they are doing with Herbert.  

Players are measured by performance against relative competition level.  They are also measured by attributes that are used as a construct of an elite athlete.  Construct Attributes can be measurables like 40 time, height, weight, size of hand, speed, quickness, Broad-jump, results of the combine.  But then you look at Atkins he did not meet those measureables is still an elite DL athlete. Then you look at Herbert who many feel meets all the ideal constructs of a QB, yet he did not improve.   

Film confirms what you see or raises more questions.  Still, the athlete has to demonstrate elite performance and intangibles.  

(04-21-2020, 03:11 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: [ -> ]Some people like to say Joe is a system QB because of what he did with Joe Brady, yet Brady himself said 'Joe Burrow is not a system quarterback.' When talking about Joe having players around him that elevated his play, Brady (and many others including his teammates) have been quick to point out that Joe also elevated the play of everyone else around him. 

I don't think it's fair to say that Joe was great because of the coaches and surrounding cast, without also acknowledging the incredible things he did to make the 'system' work and put his play makers in a position to shine, even when forced to go off-script and create his own plays, which was quite often.

If I recall correctly and more to this point Holic, I did not know Burrow's High School football team was historically bad.  Burrow elevated his teammates and they won state.  

(04-21-2020, 02:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]It means that if "hating to lose" was the reason Burrow was great then he did not hate to lose the first 4 years of his college career.

Look, all this talk about "hating to lose" being the reason he is great is just pretend stuff made up out of thin air.  Personally I think he was bitten by a radioactive crawfish before the 2019 season and it gave him super powers.  That makes just as much sense.

Well to be fair the college teams he was on went 11-2, 12-2, 10-3, and 15-0

So he didn't lose much, hating it or not. And he didn't really play for those first two teams.

(04-21-2020, 02:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Look at the title of the thread.  I did nto start this discussion.

BTW how can I be whining when I have not complained about taking Burrow?  Do you even know what whining means?  I am glad we are getting Burrow.  I am just not delusional about him like some people here.

He could be good. I hope he's good, but I do agree with Fred there's a lot of people on here that are acting like he'll be the next Tom Brady. I tend to lead toward pessimism, that way I can't be disappointed lol.

Also I'd like to wait about getting too excited until we've 100% drafted him.

(04-21-2020, 03:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: [ -> ]Im not worried, but I also know if the Browns or Steelers were in position to draft him we would be hammering home that he is a one year wonder.  Such is fandom.

If the Steelers got Burrow, I would have to be on tranquilizers.    

(04-21-2020, 03:39 PM)shanebo Wrote: [ -> ]There are far too many examples of actual "one-year wonders" who flamed out in the NFL to call it an illogical or nonsensical phenomenon.  E.g., Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware (Heisman winner), Steve Emtman, Chris Weinke, Rashan Salaam (Heisman winner), Heath Shuler, Cardale Jones, David Carr.  Most of these guys gradually improved each year, peaking in their "breakout" seasons, before being drafted high and busting in the NFL.  Some were busts because of injury, others for off the field issues, others just weren't that good in the first place.

On the other hand, there are also guys who had only one year of success in college and ended up having a successful NFL career.  Cam Newton comes to mind.  For others, like Kyler Murray, it's too soon to tell.  

I'm sure our FO has considered all this before deciding to draft Burrow, and here's hoping he turns out to be more Cam than Andre Ware.

I will stand by David Carr being a good QB if he didn't get sacked 70+ times multiple times to start his career on a brand new franchise. Example of a QB getting shellshocked and ruined.

(04-21-2020, 04:05 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: [ -> ]I will stand by David Carr being a good QB if he didn't get sacked 70+ times multiple times to start his career on a brand new franchise. Example of a QB getting shellshocked and ruined.

And you don't think that could happen here with no improvement on the OL?

(04-21-2020, 03:39 PM)shanebo Wrote: [ -> ]There are far too many examples of actual "one-year wonders" who flamed out in the NFL to call it an illogical or nonsensical phenomenon.  E.g., Akili Smith, Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Andre Ware (Heisman winner), Steve Emtman, Chris Weinke, Rashan Salaam (Heisman winner), Heath Shuler, Cardale Jones, David Carr.  Most of these guys gradually improved each year, peaking in their "breakout" seasons, before being drafted high and busting in the NFL.  Some were busts because of injury, others for off the field issues, others just weren't that good in the first place.

On the other hand, there are also guys who had only one year of success in college and ended up having a successful NFL career.  Cam Newton comes to mind.  For others, like Kyler Murray, it's too soon to tell.  

I'm sure our FO has considered all this before deciding to draft Burrow, and here's hoping he turns out to be more Cam than Andre Ware.

What a lot of the QB's you listed have in common is poor decision making.  Ryan Leaf had the arm.  So did Akili Smith.  The intangibles were missing IMO.  

(04-21-2020, 04:07 PM)spazz70 Wrote: [ -> ]And you don't think that could happen here with no improvement on the OL?

I think we've improved the offensive line myself. Would still like to see a veteran signed and at least one or 2 draft picks invested.

(04-21-2020, 04:08 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: [ -> ]I think we've improved the offensive line myself. Would still like to see a veteran signed and at least one or 2 draft picks invested.

Just curious, what did we do?  We signed a back up OG and have our unproven 1st round LT HOPEFULLY coming back healthy.  I see no proven improvement at this point.

(04-21-2020, 04:08 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: [ -> ]I think we've improved the offensive line myself. Would still like to see a veteran signed and at least one or 2 draft picks invested.

The Bengals need at least one studly guard and OT this draft.  They cannot go into the season with Jordan as Starting LG and Price as a back-up RG.  Hart still scares me a bit.  

O-line needs addressing. Ideally they'll grab an IOL and OT, but priority should be the IOL.

(04-21-2020, 04:16 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: [ -> ]The Bengals need at least one studly guard and OT this draft.  They cannot go into the season with Jordan as Starting LG and Price as a back-up RG.  Hart still scares me a bit.  

That's unlikely to happen. 

And yes I believe a 1st round draft pick tackle would be improvement on the offensive line. I mean he could be terrible, but it's adding something we didn't have last year. And XSF adds competition to the Guard position, which I still consider to be improvement.

I mean do I think we look great going into the season with just what's on the roster now? Nope, but we can only make so much improvement at this point. Like I said I'd like to see us sign a guy like possibly Jason Peters, or that Persons guy if he's still available. And draft someone in the 2nd or 3rd.

Guess we'll see how good Joe can be as a pro, and a Bengal.