Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(03-12-2022, 01:35 PM)Stewy Wrote: [ -> ]uh huh - and so it begins.

The Bengals do have a good relationship with Collins' agent if he is the one spearheading the trade. He represents Mixon.

(03-12-2022, 08:47 AM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]I can understand why people would be down on La'el Collins as he has some red flags. I just break it down as a low risk/high reward situation.

First I look at his injury history which isnt bad he missed 2020 with a hip but came back and played at a very high level in 2021 so no worries there. Then it's the suspension and that's ugly but we see suspensions of these kind alot in the NFL. Last year Pooka Williams was suspended from PEDs before that it was Alex Redmond, Vontaze Burfict, Bobby Williams... 

I see the suspension as having a positive and negative result. Negative is if he does something again then he will receive a season long suspension. Now the positive is he forfeits all guarenteed money in his contract that essentially turns Collin's contract into 3 separate 1 year 10 mil each with zero dead money if the Bengals decide to move on from him.


La'el Collins' play on the field speaks for itself. He is one of the best Right Tackles in the NFL and plays with a nasty streak that could set the tone for the rest of the Bengal's Offensive Line. Looking at the Tackle Free Agency he is better than every one of them and because of his contract situation he isn't locked in for multiple years like any of the other guys would be in the Bengals bring them in. As for the draft unlike last year there isn't an Offensive Tackle I would be comfortable going into the season with as a starter that will likely be available at #31 or #63.

Because of the one big red flag I don't want to give up a high draft pick but as I suggested a swap would be the best option allowing them to keep at least 3 picks in the top 100.

Low Risk/High Reward.


Edit: Also if the Bengals really do get Ryan Jensen as it's been hinted at from every direction. I wonder if they could slip in Trey Hopkins as part of the deal for La'el Collins since they need IOL. Hopkins cap hit would be cheap for them (5.8mil) with only a 200k roster bonus as the only guaranteed money.

It was a little more than just a simple PED suspension. He only received 2 games initially, but he appealed upon appeal the tester asserted Collins tried to  bribe him. Thar shows a willingness not to take ownership of his actions. And that's the character issue I think this team will have with him.

Everyone reading this thread knows how good LC is on the field, but we must consider the message it sends to the locker room. Does the message of "we're doing everything we can to protect Burrow" outweigh the message of "all that high character talk was a bunch of BS".

Personally I've said if he comes with no guaranteed money and we could get him for a mid-round draft pick. But I' not going to snarkily assert that folks that want nothing to do with him are "resident experts".

Finally...NEVER, EVER spell Bobbie's name wrong again..

(03-12-2022, 01:55 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]The Bengals do have a good relationship with Collins' agent if he is the one spearheading the trade. He represents Mixon.

My uh-huh was for the Deshaun / Carolina tweet...not about Collins.

(03-12-2022, 01:39 PM)Stewy Wrote: [ -> ]So is he healthy or not?  How did he play last year.

What I do know is that he is a friggin moron.....trying to bribe a drug tester.  Idiot for putting something into his body that would get him suspended....idiot for trying to bribe a league official.  Sheesh.

And what has the Bengals history been in this regard?

(03-12-2022, 01:42 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]Cowboys have to be under the cap this week would be the only reason, but they only save a little over a million this year letting him go one way or the other...

The longer the Cowboys wait the better deal for them... FA is extremely weak at tackle. 

True, but it takes two to tango, and regardless of the agent relationships, I just don't see our FO wanting a guy with APPARENT low character in a position of authority on the team.  I think if they have two guys with nearly equal skills, they'd pay a premium for character, and Collins is questionable.

We'll see.

I was reading on ESPN that if they structure a trade so that it is effective after June 1 (or cut him after June 1) then the cap hit changes from 9mil before to 1mil after, so the Cowboys may do a deal quickly, but it likely won't be effective until after June 1.  

I am sure there are those that understand it better than me, but June 1 is a magical date for all trades/cuts/releases.  Same with Watson, cutting or trading him after June 1 saves the Texans over 16mil on the cap.

(03-12-2022, 02:07 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]And what has the Bengals history been in this regard?

Lately very good.  During Marvin's tenor, very bad.  You have been a fan longer than the last 2-3 years right?

(03-12-2022, 01:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]I dont think there is any question that Pollack is the key.  

Collins had a higher PFF score the year before he missed those games than he did this season which was still better than all of our guys combined.

The reason he is even available is because of all of this... it isn't the reason it is tough to pull the trigger, its the reason we have the chance to get him.

Much of Collins issues have been public, and we know the FO gets more info than we see.  I dont know why we would be one of the first to inquire if his one injury and the suspension are so awful?

Well someone mentioned his agent is Mixon’s and I would think that bodes well. I think if we can protect ourselves and not give up much I can see it.

(03-12-2022, 02:11 PM)Stewy Wrote: [ -> ]Lately very good.  During Marvin's tenor, very bad.  You have been a fan longer than the last 2-3 years right?

No just since Zac Taylor became coach.

(03-12-2022, 01:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]It was a little more than just a simple PED suspension. He only received 2 games initially, but he appealed upon appeal the tester asserted Collins tried to  bribe him. Thar shows a willingness not to take ownership of his actions. And that's the character issue I think this team will have with him.

Everyone reading this thread knows how good LC is on the field, but we must consider the message it sends to the locker room. Does the message of "we're doing everything we can to protect Burrow" outweigh the message of "all that high character talk was a bunch of BS".

Personally I've said if he comes with no guaranteed money and we could get him for a mid-round draft pick. But I' not going to snarkily assert that folks that want nothing to do with him are "resident experts".

Finally...NEVER, EVER spell Bobbie's name wrong again..

So he misled someone questioning him about missing 7 tests out 187, I dont see that as a huge character flaw that could destroy our locker room.

A couple misses he did have very legitimate reasons, like his strength coach died the day he was supposed to be tested...


If this guy was a boy scout we would have no chance at him.  We have over 60 players, not all are going to be angels.

I think the concern of a drug test or doing something stupid is valid.  That said he is a couple years older now, could have learned from that, has Pollack, has DJ Reader and a solid locker room, he also has Willie Anderson...

I dont think it would cost #31 straight up, most likely Dallas would have to add their 2nd and a late pick to get our 1st.. unless Miami or the Raiders offer their late 1st round picks.

I would be thrilled with Collins and a 2nd round pick (56) and a 6th.  (This was a guess by a couple Cowboys insiders today that thought would seal the deal.)

I would hope that a 3rd for Collins would be the actual trade.

Regardless, the reward is much greater than the risk because his contract allows us more cash and flexibility with other free agents.

(03-12-2022, 02:10 PM)Stewy Wrote: [ -> ]True, but it takes two to tango, and regardless of the agent relationships, I just don't see our FO wanting a guy with APPARENT low character in a position of authority on the team.  I think if they have two guys with nearly equal skills, they'd pay a premium for character, and Collins is questionable.

We'll see.

I was reading on ESPN that if they structure a trade so that it is effective after June 1 (or cut him after June 1) then the cap hit changes from 9mil before to 1mil after, so the Cowboys may do a deal quickly, but it likely won't be effective until after June 1.  

I am sure there are those that understand it better than me, but June 1 is a magical date for all trades/cuts/releases.  Same with Watson, cutting or trading him after June 1 saves the Texans over 16mil on the cap.

All of this is true but...

There is not one tackle remotely close to this guy's skill level (Armstead is not an option) available in this years free agency market.

He missed 7 drug tests out of 180 and then tried to get himself out of the situation by lying/bribing or whatever. It's not like he is remtoely close to some of the idiots we have had here.

Yes they save more money after June 1st.  You know what happens before June 1st?  The draft.  They want draft picks instead of just letting him walk, doing this before free agency is best as it totally impacts the draft for other teams, like us.  The Cowboys do not care about the cash this season, they are planning for a windfall next season...

(03-12-2022, 02:12 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]No just since Zac Taylor became coach.

Zac said the locker room is now strong enough to take on a questionable player at the combine....

I doubt making a move for him will happen. But then again I still feel that the Bengals, even though making the Super Bowl while Burrow getting sacked a thousand times, will be taking a 'cross the fingers' approach in upgrading the line. You know, through the draft and picking up a couple of third tier lineman out there. Hope they prove me wrong this offseason.

(03-12-2022, 02:24 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]Zac said the locker room is now strong enough to take on a questionable player at the combine....

Well I’ve got faith in his decision but I’m sure it’s him,Pollack,Mike, and Duke all making it. It’s a no brainer if they don’t have to part with much. Then pick up Jones and Tomlinson. That would be golden. I’m just not sure what we’d have to give up?

(03-12-2022, 02:28 PM)Millhouse Wrote: [ -> ]I doubt making a move for him will happen. But then again I still feel that the Bengals, even though making the Super Bowl while Burrow getting sacked a thousand times, will be taking a 'cross the fingers' approach in upgrading the line. You know, through the draft and picking up a couple of third tier lineman out there. Hope they prove me wrong this offseason.

Don't you put that evil on us Millhouse.

(03-12-2022, 02:30 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]Well I’ve got faith in his decision but I’m sure it’s him,Pollard,Mike, and Duke all making it. It’s a no brainer if they don’t have to part with much. Then pick up Jones and Tomlinson. That would be golden. I’m just not sure what we’d have to give up?

When you say Pollard are you referring to Frank Pollack?  If so, yes I agree.  I havent trusted Mike Brown in 20 years. Duke has done well the last 2 years in FA.

The Bengals have never signed a big free agent guard, we dont even pay our own. They expect Carmen to be starting next season and possibly Smith.  I dont think Jones or Tomlinson are remote possibilities (although I like Tomlinson).  If we do pick up a guard I would guess, in order, Spain (not happy), Norwood on a discount (happy), C Willimas (ok).


As to what we give up for Collins.. very doubtful it would be our 1st Rd pick straight up, but what if it is?  Who at 31 would impact the team immediately like Collins?  

(03-12-2022, 02:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]When you say Pollard are you referring to Frank Pollack?  If so, yes I agree.  I havent trusted Mike Brown in 20 years. Duke has done well the last 2 years in FA.

The Bengals have never signed a big free agent guard, we dont even pay our own. They expect Carmen to be starting next season and possibly Smith.  I dont think Jones or Tomlinson are remote possibilities (although I like Tomlinson).  If we do pick up a guard I would guess, in order, Spain (not happy), Norwood on a discount (happy), C Willimas (ok).


As to what we give up for Collins.. very doubtful it would be our 1st Rd pick straight up, but what if it is?  Who at 31 would impact the team immediately like Collins?  

Yes auto correct thank you

(03-12-2022, 02:28 PM)Millhouse Wrote: [ -> ]I doubt making a move for him will happen. But then again I still feel that the Bengals, even though making the Super Bowl while Burrow getting sacked a thousand times, will be taking a 'cross the fingers' approach in upgrading the line. You know, through the draft and picking up a couple of third tier lineman out there. Hope they prove me wrong this offseason.

I was listening to Sirius yesterday and a caller called to talk about Bengal's oline. Pat Kirwan says he's talked with folks in the Bengals organization and they are "all in" on improving the this line, He said ar least one, maybe 2 of Armstead, Jensen, Schreff are very possible. 

(03-12-2022, 02:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]I was listening to Sirius yesterday and a caller called to talk about Bengal's oline. Pat Kirwan says he's talked with folks in the Bengals organization and they are "all in" on improving the this line, He said ar least one, maybe 2 of Armstead, Jensen, Schreff are very possible. 

I think we know Jensen is an all in.   

It would be totally against everything the Bengals do to pay guys over 30, with a history of injuries 17-20M per year, with guarantee requirements of 30-40M.

I think Pat is speculating without looking into it very deep but if he is right that would be pretty incredible, although the imapct on other FAs could be substantial.

Do you agree with him?

(03-12-2022, 01:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]The cap deadline is March 16th... so its trade or cut by then I guess.  

What is insane is that the Cowboys have a guard in waiting to take Williams spot and a RT, not at Collins level, but very solid to take his position...amazing how barren we were this season.

If they designate a June cut they don't get the cap space until then. They  are better off waiting until  June to make a deal either way. 

(03-11-2022, 03:55 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]Character, which would make your argument better than a Cordy Glenn comparison who was soft and a mid tier O-lineman.

The player was playing relatively poorly (or at least the perception was that they were playing relatively poorly by the team's fans) when he got injured and his replacement played better than (or as good as) him at a much lower cost. The player reportedly has motivation issues and character issues. He is also somewhat injury prone and has consistency issues; sometimes playing at an elite level and other times playing at a replacement level.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the above paragraph fits perfectly for both Collins and Glenn in the relevant time frame. 

Regardless, I think the trade package I proposed is close to his value, whether I'm underselling his talent level or not. I would be pretty devastated if we traded a whole 2nd or a whole 1st round pick for a guy that, apparently, the team is ready to cut if they can't trade him, per this tweet:

Dallas has given permission to starting RT La'el Collins to seek a trade, according to his new agent Peter Schaffer. Dallas needs cap room and Collins was scheduled to make $15.25 million this season. Likely to be released if no trade.

— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) March 12, 2022

 


Once that seed of "will be cut if not traded" comes out, the trade value of that player tanks. So we may even be able to get him for less than what I originally said (4th round pick + 1st to 2nd trade swap). Maybe now we can get him for just the 4th or 5th :)