Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(12-14-2022, 08:10 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]If Ossai is out Gunter will have to step up and maybe we see Carter slide outside....?

Ossai Practiced today

(12-14-2022, 10:42 PM)Anarumo_Savant Wrote: [ -> ]Ossai Practiced today

That is good news but Trey did not, so I doubt he'll be clubbin'. 

(12-14-2022, 10:49 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: [ -> ]That is good news but Trey did not, so I doubt he'll be clubbin'. 

adam schefter said Trey's expected to miss a few weeks

(12-14-2022, 09:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: [ -> ]He be clubbin' then...

Rational point Bfine.

IMO, Trey will play this week or not the rest of the regular season. 

(12-14-2022, 09:28 PM)J24 Wrote: [ -> ]We play a 3-4 or 5-2 with Hendrickson already. If anything we would be playing more 4-3 without Hendrickson.

We do not. The Bengals run four down linemen as their base personnel package. No one in the NFL runs a 5-2 aside from goalline situations. 

EDIT - Disregard, I am wrong.

(12-14-2022, 11:54 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]We do not. The Bengals run four down linemen as their base personnel package. No one in the NFL runs a 5-2 aside from goalline situations. 

We definitely run a 5-2 at times and have the past 2 years in non-goal line situations.

(12-15-2022, 12:09 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]We definitely run a 5-2 at times and have the past 2 years in non-goal line situations.

I have certainly been wrong before so I am open to correction but I can't recall a single play where the Bengals brought out five down linemen in a non-goalline situation. Maybe a short yardage play somewhere? You're the second person to claim this, so where there's smoke, there's fire and all that but nothing rings a bell. 

EDIT - A quick search finds this article from Football Outsiders where they talk defensive personnel groupings. They don't even mention 5-2 in their blurb. It's a rather rare grouping in the NFL. If Cincinnati does do it, it is incredibly rare. From FO again, they counted 150 snaps from 5-2 for the entire season in 2020, primarily from TB and WAS. 

There was 32,945 snaps that season. A 5-2 grouping was used 0.4% of the time. 

(12-15-2022, 12:13 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]I have certainly been wrong before so I am open to correction but I can't recall a single play where the Bengals brought out five down linemen in a non-goalline situation. Maybe a short yardage play somewhere? You're the second person to claim this, so where there's smoke, there's fire and all that but nothing rings a bell. 

EDIT - A quick search finds this article from Football Outsiders where they talk defensive personnel groupings. They don't even mention 5-2 in their blurb. It's a rather rare grouping in the NFL. If Cincinnati does do it, it is incredibly rare. 

Lol, it is actually not that rare for us. We do it on run downs vs running teams and several plays versus the Titans every time we play them.  Henry's long screen play was against a 5-2.  This play was 75 yards from the goal line:

(12-15-2022, 12:20 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, it is actually not rare. We do it often on run downs and several plays versus the Titans every time we play them.  Henry's long screen play was against a 5-2.  This play was 75 yards from the goal line:

It is incredibly rare. There were 150 total snaps with five down linemen in the NFL during the 2020 season. It wasn't even mentioned in the breakdown of the 2021 season. I would be willing to bet that Cincinnati has run less than 30 snaps of a 5-2 personnel all season. We are talking less than 1% of the time across the board for the NFL, and not much better than that for Cinci, likely.

Thanks for providing an actual play, though. I genuinely couldn't think of any instances, so at least they have done it. 

(12-15-2022, 12:22 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]It is incredibly rare. There were 150 total snaps with five down linemen in the NFL during the 2020 season. It wasn't even mentioned in the breakdown of the 2021 season. I would be willing to bet that Cincinnati has run less than 30 snaps of a 5-2 personnel all season. We are talking less than 1% of the time across the board for the NFL, and not much better than that for Cinci, likely.

Thanks for providing an actual play, though. I genuinely couldn't think of any instances, so at least they have done it. 

We ran it quite a bit vs the Titans, I'll have to check the Browns and Falcons games, maybe Steelers as well? 

You sourced an interesting article but the section regarding 5 lineman and the goal line provided a key excerpt...

"All defenses with fewer than four defensive backs are either "Big" or "Goal Line." "Big" includes anything with three defensive backs and fewer than four defensive linemen (mostly 4-4-3 and 3-5-3), while "Goal Line" is everything else. Despite its name, there's no requirement for goal-line defenses to actually be played on the goal line;"

(12-15-2022, 12:26 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]We ran it quite a bit vs the Titans, I'll have to check the Browns and Falcons games, maybe Steelers as well? 

You sourced an interesting article but the section regarding 5 lineman and the goal line provided a key excerpt...

"All defenses with fewer than four defensive backs are either "Big" or "Goal Line." "Big" includes anything with three defensive backs and fewer than four defensive linemen (mostly 4-4-3 and 3-5-3), while "Goal Line" is everything else. Despite its name, there's no requirement for goal-line defenses to actually be played on the goal line;"

Ooooo, I didn't read that particular point. That's strange, but fair enough. As far as I know, there is zero data about defensive personnel groupings. I don't have any. Maybe 5-2 is ran more than I am aware of but man I still can't recall seeing many examples. Great find, thanks for the correction. 

(12-15-2022, 12:30 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]Ooooo, I didn't read that particular point. That's strange, but fair enough. As far as I know, there is zero data about defensive personnel groupings. I don't have any. Maybe 5-2 is ran more than I am aware of but man I still can't recall seeing many examples. Great find, thanks for the correction. 

In my opinion it seems it is run against rush heavy teams with average or less QBs.  We would never call that vs the Chiefs...

Jaguars very first play on defense vs the Titans was a 5-2 (copy us?)

(12-15-2022, 12:30 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]Ooooo, I didn't read that particular point. That's strange, but fair enough. As far as I know, there is zero data about defensive personnel groupings. I don't have any. Maybe 5-2 is ran more than I am aware of but man I still can't recall seeing many examples. Great find, thanks for the correction. 

These are both in the very first series vs the Browns and Falcons...

(12-15-2022, 12:22 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]It is incredibly rare. There were 150 total snaps with five down linemen in the NFL during the 2020 season. It wasn't even mentioned in the breakdown of the 2021 season. I would be willing to bet that Cincinnati has run less than 30 snaps of a 5-2 personnel all season. We are talking less than 1% of the time across the board for the NFL, and not much better than that for Cinci, likely.

Thanks for providing an actual play, though. I genuinely couldn't think of any instances, so at least they have done it. 

In Re: The first example vs Tennessee
That looks like the 52, 3-0-3 Monster  (For those who may not know, that means a 5 man front with 2-LBs.  Interior DL is in a 3-0-3 alignment DTs outside shoulder of guard B gap responsibility, NT head up over Center A Gap responsibility, and a walked down Strong Safety to help run support kinda like a hybrid LB that can cover the flanker or the TE in 2 or 3 back sets but almost always stays to the wide hash.)

(12-15-2022, 12:54 AM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: [ -> ]In Re: The first example vs Tennessee
That looks like the 52, 3-0-3 Monster  (For those who may not know, that means a 5 man front with 2-LBs.  Interior DL is in a 3-0-3 alignment DTs outside shoulder of guard B gap responsibility, NT head up over Center A Gap responsibility, and a walked down Strong Safety to help run support kinda like a hybrid LB that can cover the flanker or the TE in 2 or 3 back sets but almost always stays to the wide hash.)

We run it both ways, with NT head up over center or overload one side with NT in an A gap.  Like everything Lou does, he mixes it up.  SS is always up unless the offensive is set up in ace, trips, or empty with no inline TE on any formation or we run a 2 -Man in which SS probably still shows close to the box before bailing.

(12-15-2022, 01:15 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]
We run it both ways, with NT head up over center or overload one side with NT in an A gap.  Like everything Lou does, he mixes it up.  SS is always up unless the offensive is set up in ace, trips, or empty with no inline TE on any formation or we run a 2 -Man in which SS probably still shows close to the box before bailing.

Well, we're seeing teams starting to use multiple TEs 13-personnel sets more and more, so that makes perfect sense to me. 

(12-15-2022, 12:47 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]These are both in the very first series vs the Browns and Falcons...

Yeah, I was way off. Thanks for the correction, I learned something tonight.

(12-15-2022, 01:26 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I was way off. Thanks for the correction, I learned something tonight.

I was going to debate this with you earlier, but Casear did it better than I could. We actually run the 5-2 sets more than most when
playing the best running teams. It is a big reason for our success against these types of Offenses. Against passing teams like the Chiefs
we go to more mush rush with 3-4 looks with more DB's which also is a great adjustment by Lou and the D.

Expecting to see a lot more 3-4 against Brady and the Bucs. They don't like to run the ball much. Maybe rest DJ a bit in this game if he
needs it and go with the more pure pass rushers in Boot Hill, Ossai, Sample and Carter.

(12-15-2022, 01:26 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I was way off. Thanks for the correction, I learned something tonight.

Dude, you're doing all wrong; let me show you how it's done around here.

"Did you even play football? You have no idea what you're talking about" 

..and then just cease the discussion

No, you do not change the defense cause one player goes down. Plug and play like we did with Chase on offense.