Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(02-01-2023, 10:16 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, I say Brady as that is Joe's idol.  Mahomes is the one to look to for Joe.

Brady? I’m pretty sure Burrow has always said Drew Brees was his guy.

(02-01-2023, 08:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: [ -> ]After the way he was injured his rookie year and then took a beating this year, absolutely not.

I definitely think it will be smarter for him to take a team friendlier deal because then we could use that money to build an offensive line, but how would he be guaranteed that they'd be able to spend the money there or how he wants?

I'd be upset but I'd understand it, so I wouldn't resent him.

I think he understands that a team friendly deal will help to ensure that he has a long career, which would make him the most money.

Could. But will they?

Burrow's cap hit the last 3 years has averaged just ~$8.2m and they haven't put a good offensive line around him yet. Now we're looking at going right back into 2023 with Jonah/Carman at LT, Volson at LG, and maybe a gimpy Collins at RT... and not a single very good player on the line. Karras and Cappa are just okay.

(02-01-2023, 10:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]Brady? I’m pretty sure Burrow has always said Drew Brees was his guy.

Idol is probably a bit much, and yes he always liked Brees but he has spoken that Brady made him want to play QB.  Anyway, IMO Joe wants multiple SBs and those 2 guys have shown the path.

(02-01-2023, 10:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Could. But will they?

Burrow's cap hit the last 3 years has averaged just ~$8.2m and they haven't put a good offensive line around him yet. Now we're looking at going right back into 2023 with Jonah/Carman at LT, Volson at LG, and maybe a gimpy Collins at RT... and not a single very good player on the line. Karras and Cappa are just okay.

They prefer to pay a RB $12M and WR3 $10M..... those numbers would cover Tyron Smith and Shaq Mason....

There's only one thing Burrow could do to make me resent him..

Buy tickets in the handicap section.

(02-01-2023, 10:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Could. But will they?

Burrow's cap hit the last 3 years has averaged just ~$8.2m and they haven't put a good offensive line around him yet. Now we're looking at going right back into 2023 with Jonah/Carman at LT, Volson at LG, and maybe a gimpy Collins at RT... and not a single very good player on the line. Karras and Cappa are just okay.

Can we stop already with this? It was just bad injury luck that we had backups playing RT, RG and LT along with a rookie LG in this game. With our starters we win this game outright. 

In 2023 in 19 games they surrendered 51 sacks versus 70 sacks in 20 games in 2021. Pressure percentage also was lower by a third this last year. And once the OL started to gel and get used to being together they averaged about 2 sacks a game. In that period after the line started gelling and before they lost everyone they were upper tier in pass protection. 

Would it be nice if they would consistently run well? Of course - but that also requires a more run centric philosophy and a starting RB who does not dance. But the pass protection monster was much improved for a lot of the season - and if you force ANY team to play backups in three slots with an elite pass rusher on the other side it is not going to be pretty. 

Resent is a strong word (as I figured out recently, haha).

I would say that the "Joey is 100% about football and winning" talk would ring a bit hollow if he demands maximum dollars. There's a difference between a fair contract and a player demanding max.

I won't hate him at all, but it would change my view a bit.

(02-02-2023, 12:56 AM)Joelist Wrote: [ -> ]Can we stop already with this? It was just bad injury luck that we had backups playing RT, RG and LT along with a rookie LG in this game. With our starters we win this game outright... 

I would ask if we could stop pretending Burrow had some great O-line this year before injuries made them bad?   They were never great.  Jonah gave up a league high number of sacks and got pushed around a lot.  For goodness sakes Carman played better than Williams

Volson and his 51.6 PFF grade was pretty bad as well.  I get it.  He was just a rookie but still in comparison to other guards in the NFL he was not that good. Will some of our fans continue to make excuses for him next year if he doesn't significantly improve?  I bet it happens.

Collins struggled quite a bit in pass protection and his history of injuries came back yet again.  Is this the guy we are going to count on next year?  No, because he is injured and won't play most of the year anyway.  Even when healthy he had issues.

(02-02-2023, 12:56 AM)Joelist Wrote: [ -> ]Can we stop already with this? It was just bad injury luck that we had backups playing RT, RG and LT along with a rookie LG in this game. With our starters we win this game outright. 

In 2023 in 19 games they surrendered 51 sacks versus 70 sacks in 20 games in 2021. Pressure percentage also was lower by a third this last year. And once the OL started to gel and get used to being together they averaged about 2 sacks a game. In that period after the line started gelling and before they lost everyone they were upper tier in pass protection. 

Would it be nice if they would consistently run well? Of course - but that also requires a more run centric philosophy and a starting RB who does not dance. But the pass protection monster was much improved for a lot of the season - and if you force ANY team to play backups in three slots with an elite pass rusher on the other side it is not going to be pretty. 

In 2021 Burrow's average intended air yards per attempt was 8.1 and his time to throw was 2.69 seconds, in 2022 those numbers dropped to 6.8 and 2.55.

If you throw it shorter and quicker, pass rushers have less time to get to you. That doesn't mean your OL was good, it means you are gimping your offense to cover up their deficiencies.

It doesn't take a more run centric philosophy to not be terrible at running the ball. The Bengals were 29th in rushing yards per attempt. There aren't 28 teams with run centric philosophies. Just at least be mediocre at running the ball so it's not wasting downs and teams have to somewhat respect it.

(02-01-2023, 10:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]...Burrow's cap hit the last 3 years has averaged just ~$8.2m and they haven't put a good offensive line around him yet....

But, it wasn't from lack of trying.  The point remains, that the more money available, the better the CHANCES of putting together a good/great O-line, nothing is guaranteed.  At least now, with Burrow's/Bengals success, it will be easier to attract better players.  Still have to draft well.

Dude has as many playoff wins as every other Bengals QB combined and tied for SB appearances.

Pay that dude whatever the **** he wants, and if he wants to top it off by spitting in your mouth you ***** let him.

(02-02-2023, 10:44 AM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]But, it wasn't from lack of trying.  The point remains, that the more money available, the better the CHANCES of putting together a good/great O-line, nothing is guaranteed.  At least now, with Burrow's/Bengals success, it will be easier to attract better players.  Still have to draft well.

Ehh... kind of is.

With Joe Burrow, the Bengals OL Cap usage ranks...
2022: 17th
2021: 25th
2020: 24th


Combine that with having, by far, the smallest scouting department in the NFL. It's pretty sad that Russell Bodine might actually be the best OL they've drafted in the last 10 years.

The Bengals had an opportunity to be able to pour money into the OL while they had a QB on a rookie deal, and they didn't. After Burrow got his knee blown out his rookie year they had an opportunity to make sure the problem was fixed, and they didn't. If they did, Bengals are playing in a week to try to hoist their 2nd straight Lombardi.

I hope Burrow doesn't max out the most he can get and make it an unfriendly deal, but I don't know if we can honestly and reasonably argue that if he does take a team friendly deal they will suddenly build an OL when they didn't do it for 3 years when his cap hit was $40m+ less than what it will be soon (or the 3 years prior to him coming here).

(02-01-2023, 12:19 PM)TheCincinnatiKid Wrote: [ -> ]Resent is too strong a word for me.

I'll be a little disappointed if he takes us to the cleaners for his contract, but he is completely in command when it comes to dictating what his future pay will be. A lot of teams would sell the farm for him if we don't, and he's entitled to do that.

I think Burrow's more astute than that though. Success is clearly very meaningful to the guy, and you don't build a legacy without Super Bowl wins (usually, Dan Marino!). He's also living off endorsements and banking his entire rookie contract right? To me that suggests somebody who is very financially efficient, and not somebody who will necessarily have the maximum financial demands.

I also fail to believe that a guy who made a Heisman speech which focused a great deal on inequality, will ruin the Bengals financially for his own self-interest. He will get paid, no question, but I won't be surprised at all if he takes something structured in a way which helps us compete.

Bingo. 

(02-01-2023, 12:03 PM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]If he doesn't take a "team-friendly" deal, when the time comes for a contract-extension?
If he ends up handcuffing the team due to demanding a huge contract, thereby hampering their ability to keep/sign crucial talent around him...
will you end up resenting him?

The Steelers were able to keep Roethelisberger for his entire career.
The Chiefs have been able to maintain a high-level with Mahomes now in his 5th (6th?) season.

Can the Bengals do the same?
Will Burrow allow them to?

Not at all.  The rest of the NFL QBs would hate him more than they do already.  And the cap is going up so much, he is absolutely worth it.



I don't know why, but I always think about where I would "cut corners" to save money and try to keep the core intact:

Tight end.  I love Hurst, but Wilcox can do almost the same job for pennies on the dollar.  Draft another late round TE that is a real TE that can block and move chains and develop.

RB.  I have no idea what it would take to retain Perine, but Mixon's contract is almost an inevitability.  I would MUCH rather draft a young RB in the 4th round and go with a cheaper Perine, and Williams.  

LB.  People will hate this, but I don't see them being able to sign Wilson and Pratt.  I sign Wilson and go with Bailey and ADG as the other LB as well as draft another to develop.

Conversely, where I would spend the money:

Tee Higgins.  He showed how difficult it is to defend him in those situations like the red zone.  I find a way to make a really good offer to keep him here with Chase and Joe.  He is the perfect complement.  It probably means losing Boyd (and drafting a slot WR that can uncover quicker) as well as Mixon, but I really want Tee here as long as we can.  If Chase goes down, he has proven he can take over.

Vonn Bell.  Biggest leader on the defense behind Bates.  Brings the coverage and the toughness.  Probably the hardest working guy on the team.  That sets a great example for the younger guys.

FA OT.   Need starting level talent to compete with Collins that could possibly kick inside should both be healthy.  Might seem like a luxury, but after two years of losing the starting RT, we have seen the consequences.  I would rather overspend here than have it happen again.  

Logan Wilson.   Most underrated player on the team.  

COACHES.  I know this doesn't go against the cap but open up the checkbook and pay these people!  They deserve to be at the top of the assistant food chain financially speaking.  

(02-02-2023, 10:44 AM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]But, it wasn't from lack of trying.  The point remains, that the more money available, the better the CHANCES of putting together a good/great O-line, nothing is guaranteed.  At least now, with Burrow's/Bengals success, it will be easier to attract better players.  Still have to draft well.

That's all the more reason to not resent Burrow if he wants a huge payout.  We're asking him to leave a hundred million smackers on the table so we can attempt to build a line that MIGHT be good and MIGHT stay healthy.

(02-02-2023, 12:10 PM)Nately120 Wrote: [ -> ]...so we can attempt to build a line that MIGHT be good and MIGHT stay healthy.

But that's the thing... nothing is guaranteed.  All you can do is give yourself the best chance.  Having more money available gives you that chance.

(02-02-2023, 12:36 PM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]But that's the thing... nothing is guaranteed.  All you can do is give yourself the best chance.  Having more money available gives you that chance.

As does having a deeper front office.  I'm hoping if not expecting Burrow to cut us a huge break, but at the same I have to admit that the plan of taking less for a better oline would be more appealing coming from a team that had more success in doing just that. 

If he believes our FO and coaching staff can capitalize with more cap space, I'll be on board too. 

(02-01-2023, 12:03 PM)Tomkat Wrote: [ -> ]If he doesn't take a "team-friendly" deal, when the time comes for a contract-extension?
If he ends up handcuffing the team due to demanding a huge contract, thereby hampering their ability to keep/sign crucial talent around him...
will you end up resenting him?

The Steelers were able to keep Roethelisberger for his entire career.
The Chiefs have been able to maintain a high-level with Mahomes now in his 5th (6th?) season.

Can the Bengals do the same?
Will Burrow allow them to?

With as many sacks and hits he takes behind a crappy line.  I would get as much as I can. Already had an ACL because of a crappy line. 4 years in line is not much better.  Get all you can Joe.  
They have had 4 years with plenty of cap space to fix it and nothing.  Need to let the lineman scouts go.  They have sucked for years.  
Who Dey!

(02-01-2023, 01:21 PM)Housh Wrote: [ -> ]No

We’ve been so inept at drafting lineman that he’s been sacked 92 times in 2 years

That’s an absurd and almost disrespect number when you have the league best QB.

Honestly if i were his agent I’d ask for 10 mill more than whatever we offer as a “your welcome” for getting his ass beat so much his first 3 years

He was sacked 51 times in 520 attempts in 2021. That went down to 41 times in 606 attempts last year, which is perfectly acceptable, for that amount of attempts.

It's not great, but certainly not bad, either.

Especially when you consider that a good chunk of those were at the beginning of the year, when 4 new linemen were trying to gel.

We need depth and maybe an upgrade to Jonah, but we're not far off.

(02-04-2023, 05:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]He was sacked 51 times in 520 attempts in 2021. That went down to 41 times in 606 attempts last year, which is perfectly acceptable, for that amount of attempts.

It's not great, but certainly not bad, either.

Especially when you consider that a good chunk of those were at the beginning of the year, when 4 new linemen were trying to gel.

We need depth and maybe an upgrade to Jonah, but we're not far off.

Thank you!  I tried to make this point upthread. We just had terrible injury luck late in the season. And yes a lot (15 at least) of the sacks happened VERY early on when not only did we have a line that had never played together before but Burrow was not himself (still getting back from the appendectomy). In the last 13 regular season games only 26 sacks. 

That said, they need to really do their homework on Jonah's knees because those dislocated caps robbed him of his ability to anchor. If he does not look like he is all the way back then sit him and go with Carman. Right Tackle needs a pick or a legit Free Agent because like Jonah there is no guarantee Collins is anything like 100%.