Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(02-06-2023, 10:06 PM)Go Cards Wrote: [ -> ]For one year possibly 

Again, yeah. When you’re a true contender (I know we’re still not used to that) you go all in. The window will never be more open than it is right now.

(02-06-2023, 09:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: [ -> ]Higgins back with Lawrence and the addition of Calvin Ridley next year would make the Jags offense pretty damn scary.

Have to imagine the Bengals would prefer to trade to the NFC if they are going to make a deal at all.

Probably, but I don't really see a great match fitting being in the NFC, having a pick in the right range, and needing a WR. Pretty much just the Packers and even then only if Rodgers stays there.

Commanders are at 16, Lions at 18, Bucs at 19, and Seahawks at 20, but none of them need WRs.

Falcons are at 8 and Panthers are at 9, but I think that's probably too high for them to be willing. They might be looking to see which QB drops to there, and the other might take the first WR in the draft.

(02-06-2023, 10:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Probably, but I don't really see a great match fitting being in the NFC, having a pick in the right range, and needing a WR. Pretty much just the Packers and even then only if Rodgers stays there.

Commanders are at 16, Lions at 18, Bucs at 19, and Seahawks at 20, but none of them need WRs.

Falcons are at 8 and Panthers are at 9, but I think that's probably too high for them to be willing. They might be looking to see which QB drops to there, and the other might take the first WR in the draft.

I could see the Giants making the call to kick the tires as well, which with their pick being at 25 they'd have to add a pretty good extra like their 2nd perhaps?

It's going to be interesting that's for sure.

(02-06-2023, 10:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: [ -> ]Again, yeah. When you’re a true contender (I know we’re still not used to that) you go all in. The window will never be more open than it is right now.

Agree

but just don't agree 100% and the future still needs to be looked at. The Eagles are in perfect position without selling out their future. 

If Tee brought a first round pick and a OL like Skoronski or Torrence were added, or even a DL like Jalen Carter and then a Quentin Johnston who is the exact same size as Tee is added at 28 I just don't see that ruining the Bengals chance at a SB. Plus both players would be on rookie deals for several years to come. The future would be brighter as well because in your scenario Tee walks with no compensation a year later and goes to any team he wants. At least on a trade you can keep him out of the division. 

Can always Tag him but I feel that is a D move blocking a loyal player from getting paid when you know you can't sign him anyhow and are only using them before kicking them to the curb a year later. Often they play not to get hurt that year.  

Love Tee and if the Bengals decide to keep him for one more year I can live with that, but not going to act like that is the only move that may work. 

(02-06-2023, 09:38 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]How does adding a good pass rushing DE and losing Tee make us better?

You are removing an excellent player with no backup for a player that already has 2 solid players at those spots.  Who you sitting on the bench while collecting a ton of cash, Hubbard or Trey?

Hey Casear! How's it going?

Would you rather have a prime TJ Watt or a prime Higgens on your team?
To me I'd rather take TJ Watt because we already have Chase and Boyd, and could draft another wideout as well.

(02-06-2023, 09:39 PM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]This goes against any and all trade/draft logic.  

I don't understand. Could you expand on your post?
I'll expand on mine:
If we can't get a top 5 pick for Higgens, I'm re-signing him because I value him that highly personally. 

A good way to look at this scenario is to put yourself in the shoes of the other party. I do this when I’m trying to decide if I should sell something. I play guitar, so I think, I could sell this guitar for $1,200. Would I go buy this guitar, if I didn’t have it, for $1,200 right now? If the answer is no, I’ll sell it. If the answer is yes, I keep it.


That being said. If we didn’t have Tee, would we trade our first round pick for Tee Higgins knowing we have to pay him a massive contract in 1 year (resign him scenario).

Would we trade a first to have Tee as a cheap rental player for 1 year?(let him walk next year scenario)


I doubt he nets a top 10 pick. But if we had a top 10 pick, would you trade that for Tee Higgins? Knowing you either have to pay him or let him walk after 1 year.


I honestly don’t know for sure what I would decide, but I would think very long about trading him if he nets a first round pick.

(02-07-2023, 01:25 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Hey Casear! How's it going?

Would you rather have a prime TJ Watt or a prime Higgens on your team?
To me I'd rather take TJ Watt because we already have Chase and Boyd, and could draft another wideout as well.


I don't understand. Could you expand on your post?
I'll expand on mine:
If we can't get a top 5 pick for Higgens, I'm re-signing him because I value him that highly personally. 

Again, which end are you benching for your TJ Watt?

Every draft slot has value attached to it.  And as of today Higgins is a WR2, possibly a mid WR1, and that is no where near the value of a Top 5 pick.  

(02-07-2023, 03:55 AM)casear2727 Wrote: [ -> ]Again, which end are you benching for your TJ Watt?

Every draft slot has value attached to it.  And as of today Higgins is a WR2, possibly a mid WR1, and that is no where near the value of a Top 5 pick.  

Higgins isn’t getting you a top 5 pick, we all know that.

But he is a WR1, that has been established the last two years. With that said, I do think Tee needs a sidekick to be his most effective self.

To land Tyreek Hill the Dolphins gave up a first rounder, second rounder, two fourths, and sixth.

Hill had already won a Super Bowl and had been considered one of the best, if not the best WR, in the NFL.

With this as the benchmark, I offer Tee is bringing in less than this haul if the Bengals trade him.

We shall see. I hope they keep Tee for the '23 - '24 season at minimum.

(02-06-2023, 09:11 PM)Housh Wrote: [ -> ]Yes






I mean, factor in we are a back to back AFC championship team. If you talking about two 1sts then I’d be for trading him and even then if thinks bout it

Tee could also Hold out (not an issue we have had much of recently)  but why would someone playing at 20+ mil level risk getting hurt for 3  

So many factors... Best case scenario we can keep Tee for a few years.

But with everyone else due for money it might be better to keep more of the team in tact and replace 1 WR

people wont trade 2 1st for a potential 1 year rental if a contract isnt in place

(02-06-2023, 10:43 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes listed cap hit in 2021 is misleading. He had a $21m roster bonus turned into a signing bonus before that season, allowing them to clear up $17.3m in cap space. So his original 2021 cap hit was ~$25m. Not a roster-breaking number, but much much higher than the $7.4m that he ended up with.

Fair enough, but 25M beats 45M . The point is 2023 and 2024 are our lean years, QB cap hit wise. We need to take advantage of these two years because once Burrow's contract kicks in, we're going to have to make sacrifices. Assuming he signs for what people are saying he will (50.3+ million AAV).

Quote:Theoretically they could have Higgins for 2 more years, sure. That is assuming he's willing to play in 2023 for $3m, and is then willing to play in 2024 for the franchise tag with no future guarantees or assurances. Even if he's forced to play from threat of fines or loss of a year of service, will he actually be bringing his best, or will he be making business decisions on the field? You just have to look at Jessie Bates to see that a player can still "play" for you, but not bring his A game. All the while being a bit malcontent. They have the same agent.

Signing a player long term is a double edged sword. Some players will play all out because they know their future is secure. Some players will let up on the gas pedal because they know their future is secure. 

We could make an argument that Bates didn't play all out this season because he was protecting his body for free agency, but if we did sign him to a top 5 safety contract, he may have played about the same, and then people would be saying "See? This is why you don't pay safeties. He's taking it easy out there because he already got the bag!"

Or is the correct term 'Catch 22?'

Regardless, fans can make whatever excuses they want when a player doesn't play up to expectations. I am personally of the belief that players play their best ball in their contract years. They do so because they know their play this year, more than any other year in their career, will define how much money they will make going forward. Look at Germaine Pratt. That guy probably made 20 million dollars based on this year's play (He probably could have re-signed at like 4 years, 15M after last season. Now it may be 4 years, 35M. Or maybe even more) I think that's the negotiating tactic you hold over these players.

"Hey, if you want security, sign long term. Sure, you may not make as much as you would as a free agent, but you'll avoid being in your contract year two years in a row. And you don't want to risk injury costing you millions of dollars, do you?"

If Higgins turned into a malcontent, then you can always trade him for the 1st and a 3rd everyone is saying he's worth, much like AJ Brown had become a malcontent in TEN, but I don't think he would. He seems like a good person and a team first player. 

I just read through this entire thread and all I gotta say is...

You people are insane if you think re-signing Higgins long term is a good idea or if you think it's in the realm of possibility that it COULD happen.

I honestly think the organization knows it won't happen and doesn't even have much interest in it happening. There's a few factors playing into it:

The hidden value of having an elite QB like Burrow is that he doesn't NEED two number 1, elite recievers. Having that is a complete LUXURY. Joe is good enough to cook without having an "elite" WR corps...as long as the OL is good. Look what happened when Chase was out half the year. Our offense flourished because the OL was playing great. Joe was just getting the ball to any WR that was open. He made Trent Irwin look like a stud.

Championship rosters with QBs on huge conracts aren't built through investing 1/3 of your cap dollars into the WR position group. It's built through investing your money into your offensive and defensive lines and drafting speed skill guys through the draft. Look at the Chiefs and Rams - the blueprint is there. They invested their cap space into OL and DL and it brought them a Super Bowl. The Bengals literally lost the Super Bowl two years in a row because they got out played in the trenches. It's just so imporant.

We all love Tee, but his production is replacable via the draft or FA. He's a thousand yard reciever. The Chiefs signed JuJu for 4 million this off-season and he gave them similar production. Same number of catches, 100 less yards.

I'm sorry and hate to be the guy to bring this all crashing down, but it's just not going to happen. I'm going to hate to say I told you so, but there is just no chance. Don't be surprised if we take WR EARLY in the draft this year.

(02-06-2023, 12:38 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: [ -> ]higgins has finished Year 3 so its time to look at an Extension...   Word is hes asking for a LARGE sum probly over 20mil per year.

Hes still under contract next year.   So speculation is trade him while you can before you just let him walk in Free agency.

I don’t know what this source was, but I follow the team as closely as anyone in here. I haven’t heard a peep from any reliable source regarding what Higgins wants, or the Bengals’ desire to trade him.

Again, someone trying to stir up a story where there isn’t one.

One other thing…..Tee Higgins is 3X the WR Smith Shuster is.

(02-07-2023, 01:25 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: [ -> ]Hey Casear! How's it going?

Would you rather have a prime TJ Watt or a prime Higgens on your team?
To me I'd rather take TJ Watt because we already have Chase and Boyd, and could draft another wideout as well.


I don't understand. Could you expand on your post?
I'll expand on mine:
If we can't get a top 5 pick for Higgens, I'm re-signing him because I value him that highly personally. 

That feels like a stretch to me.
Higgins was 20th in total yards this past season, behind Ja'Marr Chase who played in 4 fewer games.
Higgins could be a WR1 and possibly Top 10 receiver on a team, but him not being the WR1 affects his production on the Bengals.
He was the only guy in the Top 20 who was targeted less than 110 times.

With that said, you have guys like DeVonta Smith and Terry McLaurin who were Top 10 in receiving production this past season.
Are they worthy of a Top 5 pick?
I'd argue no.

If you wanted to argue you'd only trade Higgins for a 1st rounder, that probably is logical, but I have a hard time thinking it's "Only Top 5 Pick or Bust."

(02-07-2023, 11:21 AM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]That feels like a stretch to me.
Higgins was 20th in total yards this past season, behind Ja'Marr Chase who played in 4 fewer games.
Higgins could be a WR1 and possibly Top 10 receiver on a team, but him not being the WR1 affects his production on the Bengals.
He was the only guy in the Top 20 who was targeted less than 110 times.

With that said, you have guys like DeVonta Smith and Terry McLaurin who were Top 10 in receiving production this past season.
Are they worthy of a Top 5 pick?
I'd argue no.

If you wanted to argue you'd only trade Higgins for a 1st rounder, that probably is logical, but I have a hard time thinking it's "Only Top 5 Pick or Bust."

No one on this earth is trading a top 5 pick for a 1,000 yard reciever. Aint gonna happen. 

And would I rather have TJ Watt or Tee? 100000% Watt. Elite player at a premium position. 

(02-07-2023, 11:21 AM)ochocincos Wrote: [ -> ]If you wanted to argue you'd only trade Higgins for a 1st rounder, that probably is logical, but I have a hard time thinking it's "Only Top 5 Pick or Bust."

Tee is a proven commodity who has met and exceeded expectations in relation to his drafted slot.  Day 1 starter and likely a Superstar on a lesser team with fewer prime receiving targets.  While I also agree that "top 5 pick or bust" is bit of imperialistic thinking on the part of some fans, a 1st round pick with additional picks (value of additional pick(s) depending upon the rank of the 1st round pick). For example, if say Arizona wanted to offer that #3 pick and swap their 5th round pick for our 6yh or 7th, I'd be good with that.  However, if say Jacksonville were offering the #25 pick, I'd want to see an additional 3rd round pick and possibly a swap for their 5th or 6th for our 7th round pick.

(02-03-2023, 04:05 PM)impactplaya Wrote: [ -> ]If Tee gets traded Chase will see a never
Ending look of being doubled covered downfield

That's why the O-line is so important, give Joe time & we won't have to worry about double or triple coverage on Chase.

(02-03-2023, 04:05 PM)impactplaya Wrote: [ -> ]If Tee gets traded Chase will see a never
Ending look of being doubled covered downfield

then another target should be open...  TE WR RB

With Tee growing up a Bengal fan. I see them working it out regardless of agent. Bates should be franchised and traded however.

(02-07-2023, 11:31 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: [ -> ]No one on this earth is trading a top 5 pick for a 1,000 yard reciever. Aint gonna happen. 

And would I rather have TJ Watt or Tee? 100000% Watt. Elite player at a premium position. 

To defend Tee some, I think he'd be more in the 1200-1400 range if he got as many opportunities as the guys ahead of him.

The numbers tend to reflect that actually.
Higgins averaged 9.44 yards per target this year (total yards divided by number of targets).
If you multiply that by 130 targets (same range as Chase, Cooper, and DeVonta Smith), it'd be just over 1200 yards.
If you jump that up to 150 targets (same range as Diggs, Lamb, Kelce, St. Brown), it'd be over 1400 yards.

So I do think he would look better as a true WR1 on another team.
So a team interested in him would (should) plan to use him like a true WR1 if they're going to give up a 1st rounder (especially early one) for him, as they should expect Top 10 WR capability.
He just is going to be more limited in an offense with Ja'Marr Chase.

Personally, I think NE could be a good landing spot for Higgins.
They have a very good team every year, but they have no real receiving threats.
Their best WR is Jacobi Meyers, who put up only 804 yards. And Meyers is an impending FA.
If they can get more of a passing threat at QB too, that would help that offense too.
NE has the 14th pick.

HOU could be a good spot too. They have the 2nd pick and the 12th pick.
Get a QB at 2 and trade the 12th pick for Higgins.
You now have a WR to go with the new franchise QB.
They have Cooks too, but they'll only keep him likely this year and cut him in 2024 when he can free up ~$16 mill in cap.
Higgins would be on rookie deal for this year and his big money extension not taking effect until 2024 when Cooks' contract is off the books.
A rookie QB with Higgins and Cooks and then Higgins more longer-term could work.