Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(12-31-2024, 05:50 PM)J24 Wrote: [ -> ]That's not good enough!

since when is a quality starter not good enough...

perhaps upgrade the guys around him

(12-31-2024, 06:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Lol, you should go to Pro Football Reference and compare BJs numbers to the guys you are prospecting. Despite missing 2 games due to a hamstring injury, BJ Hill has had a really good year in tackles this year, with more season to play. His total numbers, even from his first 4 years as a pro, pretty much dwarf the accomplishments of the two that you are pimping. Change for the sake of change isn't always good.

The reason I made the comment about change for the sake of, is because it seems like you are just drawing at straws and hoping that someone new will be even better. The truth is that BJ Hill is a good player and a good fit on this team. That lack of respect for his effort and production is boggling.

Did it, over the past 4 seasons ; Osa has more TFLs and QB hits then Hill. Hill though has more tackles and Sacks. According to Advanced stats Osa has more pressures than Hill over the past 4 seasons.

According to PFF, Osa has more stops, more pressures,  and a much higher pass rush win rate than Hill does this season.

BJ has more Tackles, QB Hits, and Sacks than Williams. Williams has more TFLs than Hill though. According to Advanced stats Hill has more pressures than Williams. (Should be noted that Williams is a situational player while Hill is a starter.)

Williams has more pressures and a higher pass rush win rate than BJ according to pff. Hill has more stops this season.

(12-31-2024, 06:26 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: [ -> ]since when is a quality starter not good enough...

perhaps upgrade the guys around him

When you have a bottom 5 defense.

I would like to see the team:
- allow competition for spots with average and below average starters.
- ready to start the season.
- turn the play-calling over to the OC.
- continue to get more athletic on the OL.
It's a start.

(12-31-2024, 07:09 PM)J24 Wrote: [ -> ]Did it, over the past 4 seasons ; Osa has more TFLs and QB hits then Hill. Hill though has more tackles and Sacks. According to Advanced stats Osa has more pressures than Hill over the past 4 seasons.

According to PFF, Osa has more stops, more pressures,  and a much higher pass rush win rate than Hill does this season.

BJ has more Tackles, QB Hits, and Sacks than Williams. Williams has more TFLs than Hill though. According to Advanced stats Hill has more pressures than Williams. (Should be noted that Williams is a situational player while Hill is a starter.)

Williams has more pressures and a higher pass rush win rate than BJ according to pff. Hill has more stops this season.

So you're working really hard to promote a couple of guys that might or might not even be good fits with the Bengals over an all-out effort guy that already is a good fit with the team? You can use the advanced stats all you want, but it only makes those guys appear marginally closer to BJ in production. Now, factor in that BJ plays 3 downs, and judging by the games started and snap counts, the guys you are looking at are still just rotational guys. Gimme BJ back 10/10, he can hold it down until the new guys are ready to take over.

(12-31-2024, 05:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: [ -> ]Yoshi is a 4th option and a redzone specialist. Nothing more. He doesnt need to be anything more. He exceeded 6th round expectations already. Or 7th, whatever he was

No frank..look at yoshis princeton college tapes...he is an extremely capable reciever...excellent speed...he can run routes..extremely athletic..he looked like a hawaiian tee higgins..there is absolutely no reason why he could not be a number two or three receiver..the dude could run all kind of routes all day long and become a top notch player

(12-31-2024, 07:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]So you're working really hard to promote a couple of guys that might or might not even be good fits with the Bengals over an all-out effort guy that already is a good fit with the team? You can use the advanced stats all you want, but it only makes those guys appear marginally closer to BJ in production. Now, factor in that BJ plays 3 downs, and judging by the games started and snap counts, the guys you are looking at are still just rotational guys. Gimme BJ back 10/10, he can hold it down until the new guys are ready to take over.

Yes, I'm willing to replace an ok aging player with an younger more explosive player at his same position. Osa and Williams are coming into their prime while BJ is entering his final years. 

(12-31-2024, 07:44 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: [ -> ]No frank..look at yoshis  princeton college tapes...he is an extremely capable reciever...excellent speed...he can run routes..extremely athletic..he looked like a hawaiian tee higgins..there is absolutely no reason why he could not be a number two or three receiver..the dude could run all kind of routes all day long and become a top notch player

Uhm, maybe you look. Iosivas is still developing. He took a nice step forward this year after training with his offseason coach. However, he still made enough blunders that I wouldn't be comfortable with him starting in the WR2 position.

(12-31-2024, 07:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Uhm, maybe you look. Iosivas is still developing. He took a nice step forward this year after training with his offseason coach. However, he still made enough blunders that I wouldn't be comfortable with him starting in the WR2 position.

He drpped a couple of difficult carches...we went to all home games wand watched all the others..yoshi dropped a few very diffucult catches...higgins and chase also dropped a few..and may I add not so difficult..unlike burton he does run his routes correctly..

(12-31-2024, 08:57 PM)ERIC1 Wrote: [ -> ]He drpped a couple of difficult carches...we went to all home games wand watched all the others..yoshi dropped a few very diffucult catches...higgins and chase also dropped a few..and may I add not so difficult..unlike burton he does run his routes correctly..

Bottom line is would you rather see Tee Higgins as WR2 or Iosivas? Iosivas has made some good gains in his game this year, but I don't feel like he's at a level to replace a Tee Higgins. With Higgins' value dropping after two years of hamstring injuries, I think that he could be signed to a manageable contract.

(12-31-2024, 09:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: [ -> ]Bottom line is would you rather see Tee Higgins as WR2 or Iosivas? Iosivas has made some good gains in his game this year, but I don't feel like he's at a level to replace a Tee Higgins. With Higgins' value dropping after two years of hamstring injuries, I think that he could be signed to a manageable contract.

6 straight years with a hamstring injury. We couldn't come close to signing him after 5 straight years of hamstring injuries, so the 6th won't be a big difference.

At the end of the day he can still throw out a 9/148/1 against the Chargers or a 11/131/3 against the Broncos. So someone is going to offer him (non-elite) #1 money because they don't have a #1.

$25m/yr isn't even top-10 WR money right now and Week 1 of 2025 it might not even be top-15 WR money. Same with $20m signing bonuses/$40m guaranteed at signing, and we know the Bengals aren't going to beat out other teams in guaranteed money for our #2 WR. Our 2nd highest guarantee at signing right now is Orlando Brown Jr at $31.1m and #3-5 on our team are all rookie contracts that we didn't really have a choice on to give you an idea.

Assuming we resign Tee the WR lineup is Chase - Tee - Yoshi. Burrow clearly trusts Yoshi so assume Yoshi is our new Boyd. Aside from that we do need help on the DL and at OG. Have Murphy go back to his 2023 season weight - they had him add bulk in that offseason and it cost him a bit of speed. Jenkins and Jackson are both keepers but we need one more 3T and a NT to upgrade Tufele.

We also need a new DC - sorry but it should not have taken Lou 12 games to realize his players were not up to executing his usual system.

Offensively we do need two Guards - and hopefully the Free Agent crop on this is useful because the draft board on Guard is not the best this year.

(12-31-2024, 03:37 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: [ -> ]Good idea. I will go.

I. Philosophical Changes

I don't like the way we play. On offense or defense. Generally, it is too predictable, too vanilla, and too soft. On offense, our TE personnel give away the play. And empty on 3rd/4th and short drives me nuts. So does passing on 1st & goal from inside the 5 on obvious pass sets.

On D, we need to be more aggreessive in coverage on 3rd downs, stop with allowing easy checkdown 1sts. We don't need 2 LBs on the field in obvious passing sets. And should move guys around more and blitz more from DBs. Hilton and Dax are both excellent in this regard, but wasted playing coverage only all the time. Plus, stop with the refusal to roster OLB/edge types. We need more speed to track down mobile QBs on 3rd down. 1/2 guys out of 5/6 DEs at least. He does not have to start, but situationally.

II. FO/Ownership/Coaches
I think Mike Brown should sell (he won't). Or at least get out of the way (he won't). Or at least allow us to compete and structure contracts better (more guaranteed money) so we can land quality FAs and or retain guys but minimize cap hits. Burrow, Chase, & Higgins aren't gonna be cut, so who cares?

Duke should get fired or get help. We are 30th in the league in drafting Pro-Bowlers. Get a GM and some scouts, FFS.

I think ZT, Lou, and Pollard should all be fired, but they won't be. But how many poor starts (1-11 over 6 years 1st two), boneheaded late game decisions (just kneel v Denver, let Joe try and get a first down vs Balt, why is Anthony on the field on 4th & 16 and no pass rush vs KC when Trey was eating their LT for lunch all game). Not to mention FG/Go calls and short yardage playcalling.

III. Roster
And I'd like to see us more aggressive in certain areas with the roster build.

The offense, despite Chase & Burrow setting records, is not elite. It's good, but flawed. I think 6th or 7th in scoring. That's not elite. Lock Chase & Tee up. But fix the guards. Cappa is no longer starter quality and Ford & Volson never have been. Don't count on bargain bin FA's or Day 3 picks to fix it. Sign at least one stud G in FA, if not two. If it is only 1, then a pick or perhaps a discounted guy coming off injury (Daniels, Fries, Banks), a Day 2 pick (Donovan Jackson). And invest in at least 1 more weapon for Joe. Be it bringing Gesicki back or a high-ish TE/WR3 pick. Or both. Moss is too expensive for RB2. I'd like some Thunder to go with Brown's lightning at RB2. Though a FA/late pick is fine. We have elite guys at QB1, WR1, and WR2 if Higgins is back. Chase Brown is a good RB1. Karras & OBJ are poor run blockers, but near elite pass protectors. And Mims is promising. If we have plus to excellent guard play (and can run block) and Joe has 1 more weapon (TE/WR3), this thing will be fearsome. Good enough to carry even a average D tonthe top of the mountain. Make it so.

We need eveything on D besides DE1. Better run defense, better pass rush (DE2 and DT), better coverage, better recognition, better tackling, more speed at LB, better safety play, and a legit CB1. It is too much for one year. Build the D back with picks, smart value FA signings, and jettisoning high paid guys who are not performing (Rankins, and Hubbard if no restructure). Stone & Pratt are right on the edge, but until we have an upgrade.... we may have to live with the status quo. We are aiming for league average in the short term while stockpiling young/cheap talent longer term. Keeping Hill and Hilton would be nice. As would some kind of decent DL signing.

But my first priority is turning the O into a juggernaught. With better IOL play and a consistent WR3/TE weapon, we are there.

Big FA signings: Higgins, FA guard
Big retention: Chase extension
Moderate FA retensions: Hill, Hilton, Gesicki
Cuts: Rankins, Cappa

Then swing back around & re-evaluate. I'd want enough $$ to get more significant help in the trenches. At least one more big/significant signing: OG/DT/DE. If I need to free more $$, I will.

Restructure/Cut: Hubbard, Moss
Depends on draft: Stone (Starks, Watts), Pratt (Campbell).
Low end/min retenstons possible: Ossai, ADG, Ford, T. Brown, Herbert, Hudson, C. Sample, Bachie.

Ideally, the only "hole" on O going into the draft would then be TE1/WR3. But Sample/Gesicki/All & Iosivas/Burton are both OK if we go another direction. Day 3 depth (RB, IOL) would be it, and we could focus on the D.

I can't say we need to change our philosophy on offense, it's the best I have seen since Wyche. Now Defense, that philosophy needs to go to the landfill along with Lou. 

For me it starts with fixing the trenches. I'm hoping for a Joeyb restructure to maybe lock up Tee, but with that on the back burner I will look at these 5 upgrades: with salary cuts to make it happen:

Cuts: Rankins, Hubbard, Cappa, Moss = 31 million in cap savings

Resigns: Hilton-CB, Ford G/T, Gesicki-TE, Herbert-RB

Outside FA's:

1) Chase Young- DE

2) Poona Ford-DT

3) Will Fries-RG

4) Robert Spillane- LB/ Edge, replaces Pratt on 3rd down.

5) Andre Cisco-S pure backup guy replaces Vonn Bell.

Draft: Rds 1-3:

1) Kenneth Grant- DL (Michigan) 6'3 340- big interior guy to add to the young DL core.

2) Xavier Watts - S (ND) 6'0 205 true CF type safety the team is lacking, has elite speed.

3) Dylan Fairchild- LG (Georgia) 6'5 315, solid all around IOL, to protect the franchise, comes from a pro offense, ready day 1 over Volson.

(01-01-2025, 10:16 AM)schroomytunes Wrote: [ -> ]For me it starts with fixing the trenches. I'm hoping for a Joeyb restructure to maybe lock up Tee, but with that on the back burner I will look at these 5 upgrades: with salary cuts to make it happen:

Cuts: Rankins, Hubbard, Cappa, Moss = 31 million in cap savings

Resigns: Hilton-CB, Ford G/T, Gesicki-TE, Herbert-RB

Outside FA's:

1) Chase Young- DE

2) Poona Ford-DT

3) Will Fries-RG

4) Robert Spillane- LB/ Edge, replaces Pratt on 3rd down.

5) Andre Cisco-S pure backup guy replaces Vonn Bell.

Draft: Rds 1-3:

1) Kenneth Grant- DL (Michigan) 6'3 340- big interior guy to add to the young DL core.

2) Xavier Watts - S (ND) 6'0 205 true CF type safety the team is lacking, has elite speed.

3) Dylan Fairchild- LG (Georgia) 6'5 315, solid all around IOL, to protect the franchise, comes from a pro offense, ready day 1 over Volson.

Thank you for having an actual thought out plan. I haven’t looked at FA so my plan is just “go get these positions”, but that’s easier said then done.


We have so many holes I think we just need some studs. We can’t fill all the holes this offseason, but we need 2-3, 3 would be a lot, pro bowl level players added to the roster. And that doesn’t include Tee. If he leaves then it’s 3-4 needed.

Realistically we probably get 0-1 pro bowl type of players in FA.

Would the team save any money cutting McPherson and rolling with York to free up dollars for other positions?

If yes, would it be a smart football move in the best interest of the team?

Question I am asking myself: Would 2-3 Mike Gesicki players = 1 Tee Higgins? I mean, I think the answer is "it depends" but mostly yes. That is probably how the FO thinks too. But finding Mike Gesickis is not an easy or sure thing. Practicing the plays isn't either. And when you are in a clutch situation, one Tee Higgins might be better than 3 Gesickis. Maybe. OTOH, defenses can only cover so many guys so I dunno.

I am excited for the prospect of getting Erick All back next year too. Maybe we've found something in Devin Cochran on the OLine. Matt Lee may be an untapped resource. I could even see bringing Trenton Brown back on an even cheaper deal as a backup OT (even if you can only stay healthy for 4 games a year you shouldn't *need* to stay healthy for more than that as a backup). And recent games have shown that some of our defensive rookies are coming along nicely (McKinnley Jackson, Cedric Johnson, Kris Jenkins, Daijahn Anthony, Josh Newton (struggles sometime), and FA Marco Wilson.

So what do I want and think is reasonable? Continue drafting DLine (this is the draft for it). Let BJ Hill and Ossai go and cut Sam Hubbard. Consider re-signing Cam Sample and at LB, ADG for depth if the price is right. I'm not sure what is going on with Shelton Rankins, I'd be inclined to cut him. It isn't that I lack sympathy for someone who is sick but he'll get a payout and maybe that is best for him in the long run. Draft a 3T, and maybe one more IDL after that (could be another NT type). Draft 2 DEs. Draft another defensive player (corner, linebacker, even safety).

Basically I would only spend 1-2 picks on the offense, and that is only if you can find a good offensive line player. As for targets, you're gonna have to make do with what you have. Maybe we bring in an FA at a skill position on offense. If Marquis Brown is under 10 million I'd go that direction, though I know the powers that be hate short WRs. Darius Slayton might be another option for the right price. I'm not a fan of having too many RBs and I might re-sign Zach Moss, but I'd at least look at Najee Harris. Drive the price up for the Steelers if nothing else.

In the draft I would trade down if possible. Right now I'd look at Washington as a trade partner. Swap 1st round picks (move down from 16th to 26th), send them our 5th and we get their 6th, and for all of this we get an additional 2nd rounder (58th overall).

I'd agree that adding assistant coaches and scouts would be helpful as well. I see that we don't develop players sometimes and I wonder if we just didn't dedicate the resources to A) Understand who we are drafting/draft the right players for our team and B) Coach those players to achieve their potential by giving all they have.

Sorry, this has all been a bit rambling. tl;dr I'm optimistic about 2026, even without Tee.

(01-01-2025, 01:01 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: [ -> ]Question I am asking myself: Would 2-3 Mike Gesicki players = 1 Tee Higgins?

I’m all for the money ball strategy for replacing Tee’s production. The chiefs did it when Tyreek left

(12-31-2024, 05:15 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: [ -> ]Yoshi is a 4th option and a redzone specialist. Nothing more. He doesnt need to be anything more. He exceeded 6th round expectations already. Or 7th, whatever he was

I would have agreed with that earlier this year. The last 6 games, he's become more involved in the offense and is starting to produce outside the redzone more. He's still a step behind '21-'23 Boyd but he's not getting the same amount of targets either. He is in the EZ as often as Boyd on those less targets though.

Denver would have been Yoshi's first 100 yd game if Gesicki is set for one more second. I don't know what his ceiling is, but he has something to work with.

Sad thing about the defense is that they looked like they're starting to go back to their old ways of making cruical stops when it mattered most. But it's too little too late and aside from some games against top QBs, the defense has never been truly great in Anarumo's tenure. It's time to move on, but if it's anyone other than Saleh or a big-time coordinator, i'd rather stick with Lou to see if the defense improves next year.